REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES S E N A T E PHILIPPINE CONSULATE GENERAL BUILDING HONOLULU, HAWAII COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON) AND COMMITTEE ON BANKS, FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND CURRENCIES P. MAYOR I-1 OCTOBER 27, 1999 2:00 P.M. DEPOSITION OF MR. ENRIQUE J. ZOBEL BEFORE THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS AND COMMITTEE ON BANKS, FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND CURRENCIES (BLUE RIBBON) PHILIPPINE CONSULATE GENERAL BUILDING 2433 PALI HIGHWAY, HONOLULU, HAWAII 96817 ON OCTOBER 27, 1999, 2:00 P.M. AT 2:00 P.M., THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS, HON. AQUILINO Q. PIMENTEL, JR., CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER. THE CHAIRMAN. All right, I think we can begin. This session of the Blue Ribbon Committee will now proceed. And we are here in Honolulu in connection with the decision of the Committee to take the deposition of Mr. Enrique Zobel who has kindly agreed to cooperate with the Committee and inform the Committee everything that he knows regarding the existence of the so-called "Marcos Wealth" whatever this might be whether in the Philippines or elsewhere. And the Committee is proceeding on the basis of Philippine Resolution Nos. 450 by Senators Sergio Osme¤a III and Philippine Resolution No. and 458 by Senator Franklin Drilon. This hearing today will be the ninth public hearing conducted by this Committee, and for purposes of record, we have our usual quorum provider even in Honolulu, Senator Juan Flavier, who is around--who has arrived this morning and he is now with us. And we are also privileged to have the Consul General, the Hon. Minerva Jean A. Falcon, who will in fact be the administering officer to place the oath, to put Mr. Zobel under oath regarding his testimony this afternoon. We also have the Solicitor General of the country, the Hon. Ricardo P. Galvez, as well as Commissioner from the PCGG, Atty. Antonio Rosales and, of course, the former Solicitor General Frank A. Chavez, and the staff of the Blue Ribbon Committee, Atty. Eddie Tamondong, who is the General Counsel of the Blue Ribbon Committee; Atty. Emilia Pueyo, who is the Secretary of the Committee; and Atty. Karl Miranda, who is a consultant of the Committee, and our stenographer, Perla M. Mayor. So, we can now proceed with the statements that Mr. Zobel might make, but before we do that, I would like to present for the affirmation of Mr. Zobel a 14-page affidavit which I have here with me and which I will ask Mr. Zobel whether or not this is his affidavit including the corrections that are found on certain pages of this affidavit. And so, Mr. Zobel, may we ask you if this affidavit which I am presenting to you is your affidavit? MR. ZOBEL. (Reading the affidavit page by page with the assistance of his secretary). There are annexes. THE CHAIRMAN. Where are the annexes? (Referring to Atty. Tamondong). MR. TAMONDONG. We have copies of that. THE CHAIRMAN. Maybe later when he can introduce the annexes. This is now the very text, `no. MR. ZOBEL. That's all correct. THE CHAIRMAN. So, the Consul General will ask Mr. Zobel the appropriate questions. MS. FALCON. Please state your name. MR. ZOBEL. Enrique J. Zobel. MS. FALCON. Please state your personal circumstances. MR. ZOBEL. 1475 Ihiloa Loop, Honolulu, Hawaii MS. FALCON. Where? Place of birth. MR. ZOBEL. Manila. MS. FALCON. Civil status, sir. MR. ZOBEL. Married. MS. FALCON. As duly cognizant of this hearing, I would like to swear you in, sir, at this moment. Will you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this august body, the Blue Ribbon Committee of the Senate of the Philippines. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Do you affirm the contents of this affidavit? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. MS. FALCON. Having read the affidavit presented to you consisting of 14 pages, do you affirm the contents of the affidavit as having been--as your affidavit? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. MS. FALCON. The deponent, sir, having been duly sworn and the affidavit has been duly attested. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. And probably we go through the process of thumbprint. The whole trouble is I don't think you have a [thumb mark here], stamp pad. MR. ZOBEL. We have a red one. THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, you have already one. Never mind, it's okay. No matter what you call it. It's all right. Yes, okay. So, we will ask Mr. Zobel now to thumbprint each and every page of his 14-page affidavit which he has verified to be his own and... MR. ZOBEL. Mabuti nandito si Mr. Rosales, may itatanong ako. Bakit ang PCGG hindi ako inasikaso noong una. Bakit? Hindi ikaw, ang boss mo. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, for the record, the 14-page affidavit of Mr. Zobel has been thumbprinted by him and we would like to ask Solicitor General Frank Chavez and Mr. Rosales to act as witnesses, so that... MR. CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. CHAVEZ. I think that it is customary from Mr. Zobel staff to verify his affidavit. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Yeah, but this has been done in our presence anyway, so that's why I feel.... MR. ZOBEL. Iyong mga annex. I have here. THE CHAIRMAN. The annexes of this affidavit will be presented during the course of your testimony. So, we will now proceed with the signing of the witnesses to the thumbprinting of this affidavit. MR. CHAVEZ. On each and every page. THE CHAIRMAN. On each and every page, please. While Mr. Chavez and Mr. Rosales are signing as witnesses, we would like to place on record that Mr. Enrique Zobel is a witness of the Committee. He is not a witness of any particular person, and it was through the Committee's effort that Mr. Zobel very kindly agreed to give his testimony this afternoon. As Mr. Zobel pointed out, there are supposed to be annexes attached to this affidavit and we will try to get them into the records as we go through his testimony. So, for purposes of expediency, we will now ask Mr. Zobel to make a preliminary statement if he should care to do so. MR. ZOBEL In June of 1992, I first revealed my talks with former President Marcos while he was still in exile here in Honolulu. Our discussions had one objective: The return of the Marcos wealth to the Philippines through a foundation to be established for that purpose. Through television interviews as well as interviews through the printed media, I detailed our discussions, including elements of a Trust Agreement that Marcos asked me to prepare. I also revealed how Mrs. Aquino declined to act favorably on Marcos's plans, for reasons she would be best positioned to explain. And I did these because... THE CHAIRMAN. Naririnig mo ba? Excuse me, excuse me, because our stenographer is having difficulty. Maybe we should bring that sound system closer. THE SECRETARY. We'll give a copy. THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, you'll give us a copy. All right. Wait a minute. Mr. Baylon will now read the statement of Mr. Zobel for clarity's sake and so everybody can hear what the statement is all about, but we will have to place you under oath, Mr. Baylon. MS. FALCON. Please raise your right hand. (Swears in Mr. Baylon). Please state your name, address. MR. BAYLON. Jose Bayani Baylon, 90 Mindanao Avenue, Ayala Alabang. MS. FALCON. Personal circumstances. MR. BAYLON. Born September 25, 1962, Manila, single. MS. FALCON. Do you swear that you will faithfully read the statement of Mr. Zobel as prepared? MR. BAYLON. Yes, I do. THE CHAIRMAN. Please proceed. Start from page l. MR. BAYLON. (Reading). Statement of Mr. Enrique Zobel, Honolulu, Hawaii, October 27, 1999. In June of 1992, I first revealed my talks with former President Marcos while he was still in exile here in Honolulu. Our discussions had one objective: The return of the Marcos wealth to the Philippines through a foundation to be established for that purpose. Through television interviews as well as interviews through the printed media, I detailed our discussions, including elements of a Trust Agreement that Marcos asked me to prepare. I also revealed how Mrs. Aquino declined to act favorably on Marcos's plans, for reasons she would be best positioned to explain. And I did these because I felt that time was of the essence: that the longer we waited to settle the issue of the Marcos wealth, the more difficult it would be for us to put our past behind and move on. It has been over seven (7) years since I first went public, and to this day nothing substantive has been accomplished. Even the PCGG has not been honest to the public as, I believe, it should print in full detail what it found, what it sold and what arrangement it had made with the cronies after all, taxpayers have paid for all of these and yet nothing on what they have done or what funds they have recuperated with transparency to the general public. For whatever it is worth, I put myself at the disposal of the Honorable Senators of the Republic today, here in Honolulu, hoping that this time around we can finish what we should have finished long ago. End of statement. THE CHAIRMAN . Mr. Zobel, was that a faithful reading of the contents of your statement made by Mr. Baylon? MR. ZOBEL. That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN. That's correct. MR. ZOBEL. I will give you a copy. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. As copies will be given to the Committee as well as to media if you want. All right. So, in your affidavit, Mr. Zobel, page l of your affidavit, I understand that in October of 1988, former President Ferdinand Marcos dictated a promissory note for the sum of TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS that he supposedly wanted to borrow from you. Would you know what was the intention of Mr. Marcos for borrowing that amount from you? MR. ZOBEL. He wanted to borrow that money but I told him I did not have that kind of money. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, in your affidavit there is a statement that you also have an Annex "A" of this supposed promissory note, do you have that Annex "A"? MR. ZOBEL. I have. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. It's here. I'm handed a piece of paper bearing the name, Ferdinand E. Marcos Promissory Note and I'd like to show this to Mr. Zobel to tell us if this is a reproduction or a--it looks like a xerox copy, a photocopy of a promissory note which is supposedly Annex "A" of your affidavit. Is this the Annex "A?" MR. ZOBEL. That is the xerox, correct, but the original, I personally returned to him. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, there is a signature at the bottom of this Annex "A", which we now mark as Annex "A"-Zobel. Can you tell this Committee whose signature that is, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Teresita Gallego... THE CHAIRMAN. The one that is at the bottom. MR. ZOBEL. That's the signature of President Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. Then there is a handwritten name at the left margin of this Annex "A" which reads, Ma. Teresita G. Gallego. MR. ZOBEL. She is the confidential private nurse. She is still working in Honolulu today. THE CHAIRMAN. Private nurse. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. This particular document does not show that Ms. Gallego signed this document. Was it signed by her? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, it was. THE CHAIRMAN. It was signed. All right. Now, in paragraph 2 of your affidavit, there is a--and also in paragraph l, the name of Dra. Lourdes Pascual is mentioned prominently in this affidavit. Would you know--can you tell this Committee what was the work that Dr. Pascual was doing for the late President? MR. ZOBEL Well, at first, he was very close to her and any messages she had he would use Dra. Pascual.. Dra. Pascual also was his anaesthesiologist. For example, she put him to sleep when he removed his kidney. THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell this Committee, Mr. Zobel, where Dra. Pascual now resides? MR. ZOBEL. She resides in Quezon City. THE CHAIRMAN. In Quezon City, in the Philippines. All right. So, have you been in touch with Dr. Pascual recently? MR. ZOBEL. About six (6) months ago before we left Manila. THE CHAIRMAN. And can you share with this Committee what was your conversation with her on that occasion? MR. ZOBEL. No, it was just personal. But I think I talked to her about if I have to testify in the future, if she would be willing, she said, she will. THE CHAIRMAN. So, she confirmed that that she is willing to testify for as long as you will be with her? MR. ZOBEL. With her, yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, this promissory note which has been marked as Annex "A" of your deposition taking, Annex "A"-Zobel, was dictated by President Marcos to Dra. Pascual? MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. I think Dra. Pascual will best answer that. I know she gave it to me in the office in Manila. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, let us clarify this because according to paragraph l of our affidavit, sometime in October 1988, former President Marcos in a private meeting with his long time friend and physician, Dra. Pascual dictated a promissory note. So, the way it looks, it was Marcos who dictated... MR. ZOBEL. That was I think because she always do all the dictation of Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. MR. ZOBEL. I think that was she said. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. All right. Now, this promissory note, in effect, asked you or asked you to provide Mr. Marcos TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. Did you provide this amount for Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Of course, I have it. THE CHAIRMAN. And nonetheless, he gave you the promissory note but later on retrieved it from you? He got it back from you. MR. ZOBEL. Yes, that's correct. THE CHAIRMAN. After you had already taken some photocopies of the promissory note. MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. MR. ZOBEL. One thing I want to mention, that if you notice the date of that promissory note.... THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes. MR. ZOBEL. It was dated one day before he was indicted for the U.S. THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah. The date here is October 17, 1988 and that was one day before Marcos was indicted in the United States. MR. ZOBEL. That's what he told me. THE CHAIRMAN. I see. Okay. In paragraph 2 of this affidavit you mentioned that Dra. Pascual arranged for a visit by you to Hawaii, so that you could speak to the former President, yourself, and discuss the situation with him. Were you able to do that? MR. ZOBEL. At first, I was not interested but when he told me he was interested to return the money to the Filipino people, I said, I go there. THE CHAIRMAN. And you were able to speak with the President? MR. ZOBEL. Several times. THE CHAIRMAN. Several times. Where? MR. ZOBEL. One time in Makiki Heights and there were times in the hospital. THE CHAIRMAN. There is also a name here in paragraph 3 of your affidavit, Gemmo Trinidad. Just for the record, who is this Gemmo Trinidad? MR. ZOBEL. Gemmo Trinidad is a trusted employee of him and Mrs. Marcos. Supposedly they told me he is the golden arm. He signs exactly like President Marcos. He stays home in Manila and still does not have a job. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, in paragraph 4 of this affidavit, you state that "we discussed many subjects." Who is this--the pronoun "we", whom does it refer to? MR. ZOBEL. Marcos and myself. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, you stated also in this affidavit, paragraph 4, that you asked him how he would pay you back just in case you lent him the TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS? MR. ZOBEL. Actually I was curious how he could pay me back, he had so much money, why will he borrow from me. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. ZOBEL. So, he told me he had arranged with the banks regarding the gold certificate. THE CHAIRMAN. Gold certificate. MR. ZOBEL. Gold certificate. That the moment he issued an order or promissory note the banks would sell the gold to take care the amount. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, on that particular meeting with President Marcos, did he show you any gold certificate at that particular....? MR. ZOBEL. That's where he called Teresita from his library and in between books she brought out a folder in a one and a half inch box that had the certificates of gold. I saw the certificates. Now, whether it is true or not also I don't know, but I was embarrassed to ask for a pencil and paper and so I just calculated mentally the ounces and I ended up to the tune of approximately 35 billion U.S. dollars. THE CHAIRMAN. Thirty-five billion U.S. dollars. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, the Teresita that you mentioned in this paragraph 4 of your affidavit is the same Maria Teresita Gallego mentioned in this promissory note. MR. ZOBEL. Correct. SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. In that connection, Don Enrique, did Marcos provide you with a xeroxed copy of those gold deposit? MR. ZOBEL. After he showed, he gave them back to Teresita. SEN. FLAVIER. And so no documentation was left with you. MR. ZOBEL. No. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, maybe we should have a break. Five minutes break. Let's have a break. BREAK : 2:35 P.M. RESUMPTION : 2:40 P.M. THE CHAIRMAN. We resume. And Senator Flavier would like to ask a question. Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. Don Enrique, when you saw the gold certificate, I heard you mention about having made a mental calculation of the amount and it sounds staggering to me. So, could you repeat the amount you calculated in dollars? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Because after he showed me I immediately wrote it and have it as an annex. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. For the record, Mr. Zobel, is referring to some--is that a handwritten notes? SEN. FLAVIER. Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. ZOBEL. It's a handwritten notes. Hindi ko mabasa ang sulat, eh. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. So, Senator Flavier will now present the pieces of paper... MR. ZOBEL. I have to convert ounces to pounds, pounds-- how many pounds in a bar of gold, so I have that computation to make. As you will notice I asked the Bank of Hawaii later what the computation were because I didn't know them. And also the going price then was about 400 dollars per ounce. Now, that fluctuate depending on the price per ounce. SEN. FLAVIER. In these four sheets of paper are the annotations that per the computations of Don Enrique Zobel, on the basis of which he made the calculation of a value of 35 billion U.S. dollars. MR. ZOBEL. Only one page, the other one have all the scribbled notes, like for example, I asked the President in writing in front of it, is this room bugged, he said, I had it debugged. I got it in my scribbled notes. SEN. FLAVIER. My second question, Don Enrique is that, Mr. Marcos was trying to borrow 250 million U.S. dollars and you said that you did not have that kind of money. Did you at any time more or less haggle, as a more acceptable amount to you and to him? MR. ZOBEL. No. Because to start with I wouldn't lend him what he said. SEN. FLAVIER. I thought you did not have that money in your pocket at that time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will have this batch of papers consisting of 4 pages be marked as Exhibit "B"-Zobel, the next page "B-l", "B-2" and "B-3". All right. And with special emphasis on page....For the record, the 35 billion estimate--35 billion dollar estimate is found on page... MR. ZOBEL. Anyway, I don't know where I have here but it would approximately be 35 billion. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. In any event, you have some calculations put down in writing and we will have this marked for our purposes. Exhibit " B"-Zobel, "B-l", "B-2" and "B-3". Now, did you--is it correct that you asked Mr. Marcos if the gold deposits were evidenced by bearer shares or certificates? MR. ZOBEL. No, I did not because I was curious. THE CHAIRMAN. The reason I asked that because is that-- paragraph No. 8 of your affidavit, page 2, you state here, "I asked him in a scribbled note if his gold certificates were evidenced by bearer shares or certificate? And you have an Annex "C" according to your... MR. ZOBEL. I tell you, I forgot some facts. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, that's right. So, you indeed asked him in writing. Why did you have to write it down? Why did you not speak it out? MR. ZOBEL. Because this was all read. Before I asked it, after writing I got tired and I asked him, I'm writing this because this place is bugged, that's what he answered, and then hindi na ako nagsulat. Then we talked. THE CHAIRMAN. So, that is how the question was raised by you whether or not the room was bugged at that time? MR. ZOBEL. That's right. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, and his reply to you was the gold certificates were not in bearer shares or certificates because according to him it was a contract whereby he needed money he could get the money from that source and they would in turn sell ounces of gold to replace in cash, correct? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, you also indicated in the same affidavit that at one point your discussions turned to the issue of the U.S. court case against Mr. Marcos? And did you ask him.... MR. ZOBEL. No. That's why I explained before that, he said, he needed the money to pay his staff here before the court indicted him in the U.S. So, he wanted it right away. THE CHAIRMAN. He needed the money to pay for his staff here in Honolulu? MR. ZOBEL. For his staff. He said he had approximately 300 people in Honolulu and he needed to pay their monthly salaries. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. You also indicated in the same affidavit, paragraph 10, that you suggested to him the establishment of a foundation for the interest of the Filipino people. Can you tell this Committee what his reaction to that suggestion? MR. ZOBEL. He said, that was an excellent idea and, in fact, he has--if I do this, would you please be the chairman. I said, Mr. President, if I am the chairman, I will be sued right and left by the people in Manila for envy, so please why don't you choose someone Filipinos will not sue. Then he asked me who? I said, well, the Vatican. So, he said, excellent idea. Could you please arrange to talk to Papal Nuncio in Manila, who was Torpigliani then. THE CHAIRMAN. And from your affidavit, in paragraph 11, you also asked him why he was not tapping his cronies? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Well, I was curious and I said, I've always been against you, I've criticized you, I've written articles in the paper against you, why talk to me now. Why the sudden change? And he said, "Well, Enrique, please forgive me." Tears falling down his eyes and he said, your the only person who ever told me the truth. My cronies always told me, "Don't talk to Enrique, because he will not tell you the truth." THE CHAIRMAN. Now, regarding the cronies of Mr. Marcos, can you tell this Committee if you have any conversation with them regarding any of his cronies receiving any gold bar of Mr.. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Well, you have to realize I knew Marcos before he became Congressman. So, I could talk on a one-to-one basis, and I told him, "Why is it you said you have your cronies, you can depend on them, you asked me to start the foundation?" He said, "Well, most of them, they double-crossed me especially iyong brod ko sa U.P." What's his name? Benedicto. Is that Benedicto and several others. He also mentioned to me that in the gold, he said, "I gave gold bars to Crisologo, because they were loyal to me, Ponce Enrile and Ramos, and General Ver. I gave gold bars approximately worth one million dollars. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Just for clarity sake, would you remember when President Marcos reportedly gave the gold bars to the people you have just mentioned? Was that on the onset of the declaration of Martial rule or was it after subsequent of the declaration of martial rule? MR. ZOBEL. I honestly don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. Just for clarity, Don Enrique. You just mentioned that Mr. Marcos intimated to you that he had given one million dollar worth each of a gold bar to Crisologo, Enrile, Ramos and Ver. MR. ZOBEL. General Ver. SEN. FLAVIER. General Ver. Is that a correct inkling on my part? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. That was what he told me. Now, whether he did it, that I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. And just for the record to clarify. Who was the Crisologo that was mentioned by President Marcos to you? MR. ZOBEL. Well, he just said Crisologo. I don't know we met. THE CHAIRMAN. Who was the Enrile mentioned? MR. ZOBEL. Johnny Ponce Enrile. THE CHAIRMAN. Juan Ponce Enrile? MR. ZOBEL. Senator Ponce Enrile. THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Ponce Enrile. Who was the Ramos that was mentioned? MR. ZOBEL. President Ramos. Ex-President Ramos. THE CHAIRMAN. And Ver? MR. ZOBEL. General Ver, who passed away recently. THE CHAIRMAN. Now,...Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. When you saw the gold certificates that were shown to you in a folder, did you have reason to believe that they were authentic or were they xeroxed copies? And I am assuming you are familiar with the appearance of gold certificates? MR. ZOBEL. They were authentic. No question. But as to whether they were false or not, I don't know. But my feeling, honestly, is that I spoke to him when he showed me between 8:00 and 11:00 p.m. and he had a stroke where he went to ICU--U.S. doctor would know, he went to ICU at 2:00 o'clock in the morning. So, I guess, he felt he was going to die. In fact, kiddingly, I talked before that and I said during the conversation where we had, and I said, "the way you put all your assets, I think one trust from ...., one trust from BVI, one trust from Liberia, one altogether all the way. So, it's very hard to follow up. Nobody can't. But I think, Mr. President, you made one mistake, you thought you'll never die." He laughed and said, "you're correct. SEN. FLAVIER. So, what I hear you're saying, Don Enrique, is that you have reason to believe the certification authentic and his words to you were honest because it's like a dying man's declaration? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, correct. Not only that. But later on, in the, what do you call that, in the Vatican trust, he stated that this money would only go to the Philippine as long as two conditions are met: One, he be buried in the Philippines not in the Consulate Philippine soil. Be buried in the Phillippines. Second, that his family will not be pursued. So, obviously he felt he was going to die. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, let's pursue the question of the establishment of a foundation. Can you tell this Committee whether or not the foundation was, in fact, formed? MR. ZOBEL. It was not formed. The Papal Nuncio, I was able to talk to him through Father Alarcon who brought me to his residence in front of La Salle, and he went to Rome. He first came, talked to the President and the President made a confession with him but he can't tell to the priest. But he went to Rome and he got the foundation but instead of the Vatican, it was Torpigliani, which was the--he had the title changed in Rome. It should be the trust of the Vatican. That was the only thing. Otherwise, everything was in order. Now, the President was not able to sign because the doctors said he could understand then more than four seconds. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, let's clarify this thing. The foundation, Mr. Zobel, was supposed to be authorized by or would include the Vatican, is that what I understand from your statement? MR. ZOBEL. No. The Vatican was asked to be the chairman through the representative in the Philippines and that would be Msgr.Torpigliani. THE CHAIRMAN. Well, yes that's a little clear now. That the foundation was to be chaired by the Vatican through the Papal Nuncio of the Philippines, at that time Bruno Torpigliani. MR. ZOBEL. He will be the chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Who will be the chair of the foundation. Can you tell this Committee who were supposed to be the members of the foundation? MR. ZOBEL. Dra. Pascual, Father Alarcon and myself. THE CHAIRMAN. Dra. Pascual, yourself and Father Alarcon. Kindly tell this Committee Father Alarcon is alive? MR. ZOBEL. He is alive. What is his position in Manila? (Referring to Mr. Baylon). THE CHAIRMAN. So, he is in Manila. MR. ZOBEL. He is in Manila. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. MR. ZOBEL. He was then in Tala Leprosarium and later on San Beda, and now he is one of the presidential advisers of Erap. THE CHAIRMAN. Right now? MR. ZOBEL. That's what J. B. tells me. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it's better that we limit your testimony to what you had given. MR. ZOBEL. That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN. It will have more weight. Now, regarding the formation of this foundation, did you have to employ the services of a lawyer? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I employed the services of Mr. Mike Garcia, who is a lawyer in Honolulu. In fact, he charged me the bill because Marcos died so I have to pay the bill which is 4,000 dollar. I have the receipt here. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Here is a document consisting of... MR. ZOBEL. I must state that Mr. Garcia said, if it is for Mr. Marcos. I don't want to do anything, but if it is for you I will. So, I said, okay, it's for me. THE CHAIRMAN. ....consisting of 7 pages. The first document is a recounting of the events leading to the charges that were forwarded to you in the amount of 4,519.95 dollars, is that correct? MR. ZOBEL. That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN. This is the amount of legal fees... MR. ZOBEL. Legal fees. Because the President wanted the draft the next morning. So, the lawyer had to work overnight. THE CHAIRMAN. Which the law office of Frunzi, Yee and Garcia, billed you for having put that proposal to create a foundation in legal form? All right. I have here before me as part of this batch of documents a letter of transmittal, I mean, that's the caption of the document, dated February 1, 1988, 1989, addressed to Mr. Enrique Zobel, l475 Ihiloa Loop, Honolulu, Hawaii. Kindly take a look of this if this is the bill that---or this is the letter of transmittal was received by you bearing the signature of Mike Garcia at the bottom of the page? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, that is correct. THE CHAIRMAN. The answer is yes. And the attached document is a letter of transmittal is denominated as special power of attorney purportedly to be made in the name of Ferdinand Edralin Marcos. Will you kindly take a look at this page document attached to the letter of transmittal. Is that the same document that you...? MR. ZOBEL. That is the same. Now, this was suggestion of this lawyer, Mr. Mike Garcia, but Mr. Marcos never signed this. THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Marcos did not sign this document. Can you tell this Committee why Mr. Marcos did not sign? MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. This document was supposed to be a special power of attorney. MR. ZOBEL. Maybe somebody else. THE CHAIRMAN. Where, according to this document any and all precious metals and all other properties which I have entrusted for deposit for safekeeping, as well as all gold that I may own wherever situated will be placed under the custody of his attorney-in-fact? You know who this attorney-in-fact would be, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. I mean, Zobel, Exhibit "C", "C-l" "C-2"- Zobel. Now, I understand also that on one occasion you had talked with a certain Delly Castillejo. Can you tell this Committee who this Delly Castillejo? MR. ZOBEL. Delly Castillejo is the sister of the wife of Pedro Cojuangco, the brother of Cory Cojuangco, which is a friend of mine, both husband and wife. And I called him through Delly, invited Delly and him to my house in Alabang, and I showed him the idea of Marcos to put a foundation. He loved the idea and he said, "Well, Enrique I'll get back to you in two days and give me a chance to talk to my sister." After two days came, walang reply. Nothing happened. And now I heard from the....these are rumors that Cory were not interested because babango daw si Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, you also stated in your affidavit, paragraph 17, that you had met with then Vice President Salvador Laurel. Can you tell this Committee what was that meeting all about? MR. ZOBEL. Well, there were many meetings. In fact, Doy Laurel came to Honolulu to talk to the President twice in the hospital. Now, we both had agreed that to tell Cory that if she signs a letter to represent the Philippine government to the banks, to the Swiss bank specifically, and the heirs of Marcos had also agreed to sign, that the Swiss bank could release immediately the money, but Cory was not interested. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, regarding your meeting with Vice President Laurel, can you tell this Committee what was the tenor of your conversation with him? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. There were two things--two important things came about. One was to send two doctors, I forgot the names, and I have the record of their flight, everything was arranged. To check if Marcos could really talk or not, because the doctor here said, he could not and so we could not establish the foundation. But at the airport, then health secretary Bengzon stopped them at Immigration, didn't allow them to board, upon orders of Cory. THE CHAIRMAN. Did you and the Vice President, then Mr. Laurel talk about the possibility of the return of Mr. Marcos to the Philippines? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, he did. He told Cory because he was still in the government. He told Cory that he would seek no objection to returning Marcos but Marcos said, I want to return when I'm dead. Now, the one that said, "over my dead body" was Ramos. THE CHAIRMAN. You are referring to the former President? MR. ZOBEL. Ex-President Ramos. THE CHAIRMAN. So, the former President was not in favor of the return of Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Even if dead. THE CHAIRMAN. Dead or alive, is that what you mean? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. You mentioned earlier, Don Enrique, that there were two conditions imposed by Mr. Marcos, namely, one is the return to the Philippines and the safety of his family. Were these conditions...? MR. ZOBEL. The condition of his family in regards to suits. SEN. FLAVIER. To suits. Were these two conditions incorporated in any document that merged? MR. ZOBEL. I guess, yes. They were incorporated and also that letter was given to Doy Laurel. SEN. FLAVIER. I see. In sum, the foundation never really got born, so to speak? MR. ZOBEL. Because the doctors did not allow him to sign. But you see that foundation of his gold was revocable until the government had agreed on the two conditions, that would be come automatically irrevocable. SEN. FLAVIER. I see. And so it was that illness that prevented the final signing of the foundation papers? MR. ZOBEL. No. His health, the local doctor would not certify....They would certify that he was capable of knowing he was signing. SEN. FLAVIER. I see. It was the certification that he was lucid and able to sign that document? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. SEN. FLAVIER. Those two doctors I happened to know, then Dr. Sawit and Dr. Alano were not allowed to come? MR. ZOBEL. Were not allowed to leave Manila Airport when they had the tickets on hand. SEN. FLAVIER. Did you get an inkling of why? MR. ZOBEL. Well, according to Doy, he told me that the doctors were stopped by an order to Immigration from Secretary of Health which was Bengzon. Bengzon ba? SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. MR. ZOBEL. Bengzon. That's what the Vice President told me. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. ZOBEL. The tickets and the flight number they were taking nandiyan sa notes. THE CHAIRMAN. Flight number, yes. Oo. Of these two doctors. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, did you have any other conversation with Vice President Laurel after that, after the two doctors were prevented from leaving? MR. ZOBEL. Well, specifically what subject I say because I used to see Laurel about twice a week then, and so we had a lot of conversations. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, recently, let us fast track as it were the events. Did Mr. Laurel see you either in the accompany of some PCGG officials or by himself? MR. ZOBEL. No. He came to see me with some PCGG officials. I have the note. Kailan ba ang petsa in my notes. I can furnish you a copy. He came with--do you recall the names, Evelyn? Maybe... THE CHAIRMAN. Never mind. The Chair of the PCGG prior to the last two chairmen of the Presidential Commission on Good Government was Mr. Magtanggol Gunigundo. Do you remember if Mr. Magtanggol Gunigundo ever came to your house or anywhere to see you regarding the Marcos wealth? MR. ZOBEL. He came to my house, he had dinner and he was accompanied by the one in charge in the airport during the Marcoses time, Tabuena, by a lady by the name of Cherrie Cobarrubias, General Kintanar. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. What was the mission of Mr. Gunigundo when he went to see you? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I think he was fishing because he wanted to know if I knew of the whereabouts of the gold. So, I said, first, we do--please put it in writing and he exactly anticipated that and he gave me a letter which he and Imelda. Now, Imelda signed and he said he will sign before leaving but he did not. But he offered me to 5 percent commission. I can furnish you a copy of that. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, in that particular visit of Mr. Gunigundo, just to clarify you were offered a 5 percent commission for what? MR. ZOBEL. To tell them the location of the gold which I don't know. So, after he gave me the letter, I really don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. But the first time he came over to see you that offer was not yet in writing? MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. No, no. He brought it with him. But he did not sign it. He said he will sign it upon leaving, but I can't move, so he left at the end of the table and when I got the letter, only Mrs. Marcos signed, but he did not. He brought the letter because his name was at the bottom. THE CHAIRMAN. So, in one of the hearings of the Blue Ribbon Committee in Manila, Mr. Gunigundo denied that he ever offered you any percentage of the Marcos wealth which will be recovered upon your information? MR. ZOBEL. I'm sorry, Mr. Senator, but he is a big liar. And, in fact, I have all these witnesses that would testify that he offered me that. In fact, my nurse here was--ah, no, wala ka doon. (Referring to his nurse). Fernando pala. The male nurse JB, was there. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, was Vice President Laurel present at that time when Mr. Gunigundo made that offer? MR. ZOBEL. I'm not sure, but you see Vice President Laurel came once before because--once before he came and then Gunigundo came. Whether Laurel was present with Gunigundo, I think so but I'm not sure. I think so. THE CHAIRMAN. What about Mrs. Imelda Marcos, did she go to you in connection with the Gunigundo offer? MR. ZOBEL. No. She only sent me a signed letter but she was represented by Cherrie Cobarrubias. THE CHAIRMAN. So, she was not represented by... MR. ZOBEL. By Cherrie Cobarrubias. THE CHAIRMAN. Cherrie Cobarrubias. Can you tell this Committee how do you know that Mrs. Cobarrubias was representing Mrs. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I don't know, but that's what they told me so... THE CHAIRMAN. All right. She told you anyway? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, she told me. And it was also certified by Tabuena. I know Tabuena is very close to Mrs. Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tabuena was also present at that time? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, he was. MR. CHAVEZ. Your Honor, just to assist the Committee. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes. MR. CHAVEZ. Cherrie Cobarrubias appears as one of the signatories to so many documents that had already been submitted to the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee. As a matter of fact, she is a signatory as a witness to the two agreements dated December 28, 1993 which were eventually nullified by the Supreme Court. She is also a signatory of Mrs. Marcos and Kintanar to an offer that they made to Mr. Gunigundo sometime in 1995 which was also already been marked as evidence. THE CHAIRMAN. All right, good. Now, ...yeah, I think we can have a break. BREAK : 3:20 P.M. RESUMPTION : 3:45 P.M. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. I think we can resume. Mr. Zobel, will you kindly tell this Committee if you remember the terms of that--the term of sharing of the wealth of Mr. Marcos as put into the foundation agreement? MR. ZOBEL. It's in the Vatican trust. But if I recall right, 10 percent would go to the Marcos family, the wife and children. THE CHAIRMAN. Ten percent. MR. ZOBEL. Ten percent would go to the Vatican for the poor people and in the missions. THE CHAIRMAN. And in the... MR. ZOBEL. In the missions for the Vatican to dispose of. One percent to the people in Hawaii that were loyal to him. And then I don't know. But the rest would go to the foundation to be used specifically for schools, hospitals and infrastructure and agriculture. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, apparently only 10 percent of the supposed Marcos wealth would go to the Marcos family. MR. ZOBEL. Correct. THE CHAIRMAN. Would you know if there was any--or was this accepted by the Marcos family to your knowledge? MR. ZOBEL. Well, they have no choice but on that way. But they--Mrs. Marcos asked Dra. Pascual if I could say 15, of course I said, "No, because that's what the President said. I'm sorry, if they really wanted more than ten, it can't be. THE CHAIRMAN. Are we getting correctly the impression that Mrs. Marcos objected to 10 percent? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I don't think she objected, but she wanted a little more. THE CHAIRMAN. She wanted a little more. And your reply to that was that's not possible because Marcos wanted it that way? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. SEN. FLAVIER. In an earlier section you were also alluded in your deposition that the matter of the foundation came as a surprise to Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. No, because I must state that the President told me, "Enrique, please swear to me that you will never tell my wife or my family about the gold." But because he was dying, I had no choice and I had to leave. So sabi ko, "pakiusap na lang, kung bago mamatay kung sakaling gumaling, pirmahan ito." SEN. FLAVIER. But later, you entrusted to Bongbong the matter of securing the signature? MR. ZOBEL. I entrusted to both of them, together, mother and son. SEN. FLAVIER. Together, mother and son. But even that was never signed. MR. ZOBEL. Never signed, because he never get out of ICU. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN. And just for the record, would you recall any reaction made by Bongbong Marcos regarding this sharing? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I recall very well that he looked at it and he said, "Bakit hindi sinasabi sa amin ng tatay ko ito." That's all I heard. I was further sad. I said, "Well, that is the family relation already and not my duty to investigate. THE CHAIRMAN. In your understanding, what would you--what did Bongbong mean by "Bakit hindi sinasabi ng tatay namin ito?" MR. ZOBEL. Well, the way I would take of it he never knew that his father had that much money or that much gold. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, going back to the gold certificates, can you tell this Committee if you have seen the gold certificates yourself? Do you remember if there were any mention of any banks which--were the depository of this gold? MR. ZOBEL. No. I recall that--because I did not have time to look, I mean, it was quite thick but I scanned on that. I looked---I was only interested in the ounces and the location, and the locations were all over the world. They have at Portugal, the Vatican, Spain, U.S. Treasury, all over. They had Germany. So, you may have all over the world. They had in Solomon Islands. THE CHAIRMAN. Switzerland. MR. ZOBEL. Switzerland, O yes. Switzerland. THE CHAIRMAN. Do you recall if the name of the Union Bank of Switzerland was ever mentioned? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I know Union Bank very well. THE CHAIRMAN. Was it mentioned in one--among the certificates that you saw? MR. ZOBEL. No. It is not mentioned---I just saw in the certificate countries. I didn't see the owners or the banks. THE CHAIRMAN. Would you know if Mr. Marcos obtained any deposit in terms of cash or anything of value with Philippine banks? MR. ZOBEL. No, he didn't tell me of Philippine banks. THE CHAIRMAN. In your association with President Marcos, did you ever come across a lady by the name of Fe Roa Jimenez? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. She used to work in the Palace. I don't know. I used to see her before during Marcoses. At that time Marcos was the President she is always in Malacanang. THE CHAIRMAN. Do you know if Ms. Fe Roa Jimenez still alive? MR. ZOBEL. I think so but I really don't know. I know she was very close to Imelda. I do have a certificate that--I don't recall whether President Marcos first gave it to me or somebody else, but it will be a U.S. Treasury deposit. Saan nandoon? (Referring to his female nurse). THE CHAIRMAN. The U.S. Treasury and you have a copy of it? All right. Mr. Zobel affirms that he has a copy of it. All right. Just to complete your testimony in this regard, you saw a certificate of deposit with the U.S. Treasury, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. I have it here . You can have it. Now, whether it's real or not, I don't know. But I don't remember honestly whether Marcos firstly gave it to me or somebody else. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So you have this certificate and I am now handed these two-page document which says, FCD International Certificate, B and CCD U.S. Treasury, B and CPLD Federal Reserve Note, BC International transaction, and the name of the depositor is Mr. Ferdinand Marcos. The amount of the deposit is--maybe if you can tell us, just what is the amount stated here, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Well, that hindi ko mabasa. FCD deposit U.S., ano ito, 16....l6l,000,000 THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred sixty-one million. MR. ZOBEL. One hundred sixty-one million. Only one deposit, one certificate. That is million I'm sure. THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Flavier, kindly tell us the figure? MR. ZOBEL. You notice also that the certificate has been renewed several times. THE CHAIRMAN. Renewed several times. MR. ZOBEL. That sometime confusing. This is very rare to have renewals, renewals every year. SEN. FLAVIER. The U.S. deposit, Mr. Chairman, is U.S. dollars l6l,000000 with a dash, meaning, that was the end. One hundred sixty-one million dollars international plus the dollar transaction. MR. ZOBEL. Correct. And the second page , you see the interest paid per three-day. THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi na mabasa. Now, can you tell this Committee whether or not this particular document was given to you in this form, meaning to say, a photocopy? MR. ZOBEL. Photocopy which I have in Manila. It's very clear than that. That is my xerox. THE CHAIRMAN. This is your xerox copy. MR. ZOBEL. My xerox copy, because all my originals are in Manila. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, will you kindly show to the Committee that particular--the first document that was given to you regarding this transaction? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. And are you not aware whether this document was ever involved in the rackettering case against Mrs. Marcos? Would you know, Mr. Zobel, if this was involved? MR. ZOBEL. No, I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. So, if this was not involved in the rackettering case of Mrs. Marcos, this will be the first time that the U.S. Treasury would be involved in the handling of the Marcos wealth as a depositor? All right. So, we will have this marked as Exhibit "D"-Zobel, "D-l". MR. ZOBEL. Mr. Senator. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. ZOBEL. You asked me before if I knew anything in the Philippines. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. ZOBEL. Well, not with Marcos but through very, very reliable sources. I hear that the Central Bank had a lot of money deposited and they invested it in Singapore, bonds. Now, as a banker, this bring to my attention. The other bank that said to have a lot of deposit the Metropolitan Bank. Now, my point would be this. Because this is now the thing, it's because of my curiosity why in the Philippines is the government trying to merge all the banks while the rest of the world, they are wanting more bank because not a monopoly now. The bigger they are, the bigger they fall. So therefore, I think they are planning a laundering operation because when you control only four, five big banks then the laundry of the Central Bank, if it's true. Now, why is it in the Philippines is going an opposite, why not all the banks all over the world ? Why? That's my question. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, let's try to clarify that. In what sense did you mean that the Central Bank was involved in the laundering of the Marcos wealth? MR. ZOBEL. No, no. I've only heard this as a rumor, but this rumor would rather happening and make sense. THE CHAIRMAN. And in what capacity did this Metropolitan Bank get more? MR. ZOBEL. This person told me that the deposits in the Philippines of Marcos are in the Central Bank and Metropolitan Bank. That's all. THE CHAIRMAN. In the Central Bank and Metropolitan Bank. MR. ZOBEL. It so happened that Metropolitan Bank is the biggest bank in the Philippines now. Be curious. It only takes and add into one thing and another. THE CHAIRMAN. Just for the record. Mr. Zobel, can yoiu tell us who owns Metropolitan Bank, did you know? If you know? MR. ZOBEL. It's a Chinese by the name of--anong pangalan? Ty. George Ty. THE CHAIRMAN. I understand that among other events that caused you some frustrations was the fact that reportedly the Aquino government did not do anything to really recover the Marcos wealth. Can you amplify on that, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I think in ascendant you can say personal pride was more than national pride. I think you can read the meaning of that. THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us of your knowledge if Mrs. Marcos, I'm sorry, Mrs. Aquino during her term as president sent any emissary to talk or negotiate with Mr. Marcos here in Hawaii? MR. ZOBEL. Well, she said, "Iyong dalawang..." I have it in my note. The two people from government, Sumulong and Tanjuatco. But Marcos rejected their offer because according to him, that's one thing he told me, they were asking for 10 percent commission. That's why he said, "no way." THE CHAIRMAN. So, that was according to Mr. Marcos, they were asking 10 percent of whatever is recovered? MR. ZOBEL. Whatever is recovered by the Philippine government. THE CHAIRMAN. Did you have occasion to pursue that particular information of Mr. Marcos either to verify or to discuss more lengthily? MR. ZOBEL. No. The only person I told it and we discussed it thoroughly was with Doy Laurel. THE CHAIRMAN. Was with Doy Laurel. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. I told that to Doy and Doy confirmed it. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, immediately prior to the taking of this deposition, were you bothered by any person by way of calls or direct conversation with you regarding the subject matter of this depositon? MR. ZOBEL. Oh! I had a lot of calls, I had a call that they would kidnap my children. I don't believe in that. Screw them. Excuse the language. THE CHAIRMAN. We will strike out the unparliamentary. But never mind, it's his description how he feels about it. And you have a son in the Philippines, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. And he is working with San Miguel? MR. ZOBEL. No, no. He is the director of San Miguel. He is working with E. Zobel Inc., our company. He has operates it. THE CHAIRMAN. And in one of the calls that was made to your house here in Honolulu, was your son mentioned by the caller in any respective order? MR. ZOBEL. No, but there is a certain caller that called my man who is here about my son and Bongbong had talked, but I said, I don't know. By coincidence, my son called me about something else and I answered, has Bongbong called you, he said, "No." So, that's a lie. In fact, I wrote a letter Bongbong today, I have not typed yet. I'll give you a copy. THE CHAIRMAN. You wrote Bongbong? MR. ZOBEL. I wrote Bongbong. THE CHAIRMAN. Aha? MR. ZOBEL. To ask him why this person asked these questions. What is he hiding. What he is up to? THE CHAIRMAN. Some people are questioning why it is only now that your testimony is being proferred to a government body like the Blue Ribbon Committee? Why not in some earlier years, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. That I don't know. But an educated guess, the government doesn't want the Filipino people to know the truth. That's my feeling. SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. SEN. FLAVIER. Related to that, `no. An earlier point is, your revelation yourself which came after 1992. And the legitimate question is, why did you wait till then which I recall you revealed through a TV program.... MR. ZOBEL. Two TV programs.. SEN. FLAVIER. Two TV programs of Randy David and the late Louie Beltran--these were all after 1992. The question is related to my Chairman's question. Why did you not reveal it earlier? MR. ZOBEL. Because nobody in the government was interested. They didn't want to listen to me. So, they do not listen, why talk. SEN. FLAVIER. How about the fact that there was an elections in 1992? MR. ZOBEL. Regardless. They were not interested because rumors again, rumors, you see that all this money is a fraud. The Philippine government cannot get it. Now, they wanted to divide it abroad without part to the Philippines. That's a rumor. I've heard from very, very confidential people. SEN. FLAVIER. But what made you decide after 1992 to speak out and make this very important revelation? MR. ZOBEL. Well, because I felt that that it was my duty to reveal that this money should go back to the Filipino people especially now that our economic is very bad, and then...Not only that but I talked to many bankers, Manhattan, to City Bank, all these people who loaned money to the Philippines. And I told them, supposing a group of Filipino businessmen paid the debt of the Philippine government which was above 18 million then, 19 million, would you--how much would you give a discount? They said, "Well, if you pay in dollars, we give you something like 50 percent discount." So, we could pay with the money that Marcos would give, we could have paid the debt. By the way--and imagine I even computed there, I have my notes that we could give everybody in the Philippines, every Filipino citizen a bonus of 2,000 U.S. dollars. That was only the interest. But nobody-- no takers. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Were you ever approached by any government body, panel including the PCGG to testify regarding your knowledge of the Marcos wealth aside from that meeting which you had with Mr. Gunigundo? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. In fact, the gentleman is here. He called my house, he came and I said, I would only give my testimony whatever I know to the bearer or to your boss. But I was not interested to the person you brought along, who was ex- employee of Campos. He was an employee of Campos. Before that, he was an employee of Benedicto. I know him very well. Now, if I needed the PCGG for my testimony, bring in somebody that belongs to the opposite camp. Ano ang rason niya. Why did you bring this gentleman who was involved with somebody who took away assets from us. THE CHAIRMAN. This is out of the ordinary, but do we allow the Commissioner of PCGG, Mr. Rosales, to answer that question. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. the commissioner came to my house. MR. ROSALES. May I know who you are referring to? MR. ZOBEL. Soler. I know Soler since we were kids. Nothing wrong. But, to me, why PCGG brought somebody that you took assets from to investigate me. Why? MR. ROSALES. Mr. Soler was the--a director and still now the director of the IRC Group of companies was surrendered by Mr. Campos. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. But does he have to do of what I know about Marcos? Why? MR. ROSALES. Well, in the course of our relations, he mentioned to me that you were a personal friend. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. MR. ROSALES. So, I asked him if you could bridge a meeting between PCGG informally to start between me and the other commissioner to have a talk with you and react to the newspaper reports then being attributed to you about the Marcos gold. MR. ZOBEL. Well, I find it very highly irregular to bring somebody you confiscated assets from. Even my son doesn't know about this Marcos gold. Now, why should I tell the other side. MR. ROSALES. Is this on record? THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. ROSALES. Mr. Chairman. Before I brought Mr. Soler to your residence, I mentioned him to you in my two communications. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. MR. ROSALES. And you even asked me, now who is Mr. Soler? So, I replied to you, give you a background your relationship to him. MR. ZOBEL. That's why I wanted it in writing. That's why I asked you. MR. ROSALES. Then when we got your confirmatory fax for us to attend, then I brought him along. That's the whole story behind that. MR. ZOBEL. That's why I told you nothing. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, immediately prior to the holding of this deposition, is it true that some people had come from the Philippines to monitor this deposition-taking aside from the official members of this panel? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell this Committee? MR. ZOBEL. Two people came on Sunday. I think one gentleman from the FBI is here. He arrives Sunday. A certain Captain Luga. And another one, Bobby Dacer. Those came on Sunday flight who called and the FBI were watching for them. Now, record is Bobby Dacer, he is a paid emissary by the administration for somebody to confuse this. He is known for that. Parang papalitan ang sinasabi mong totoo. I mean, I handled 34 corporations. My question was, why are they sending army people? That's retired captain. Why? This retired captain was in Honolulu during the Marcos time. THE CHAIRMAN. Also. MR. ZOBEL. Also. Now, why are they sending ex-army people? Why? Are they afraid of the truth? THE CHAIRMAN. Now, regarding the Marcos gold, can you tell this Committee of your knowledge how the Marcos gold has been explained to have come into the possession of Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Well, partly he told me he found the Yamashita treasure. THE CHAIRMAN. He found. MR. ZOBEL. He found the Yamashita treasure. THE CHAIRMAN. The Yamashita treasure. MR. ZOBEL. Yes, part. Part he said, he bought from soldiers who had him the past, who were the past that he supposed he got decorated sa... THE CHAIRMAN. Bessang Pass. MR. ZOBEL. Bessang Pass. He said, some soldiers then sold him the gold for 20 U.S. dollars then because they couldn't carry the gold out, as it could get confiscated... THE CHAIRMAN. The gold bar? MR. ZOBEL. The gold bars. THE CHAIRMAN. Twenty U.S. dollars per bar? MR. ZOBEL. Twenty U.S. dollars per bar. Now, remember then, I told him, I kidded him and said, "why didn't say this before?" Because you have to pay taxes on it. He said, "Enrique, you have to remember, there was no government, no laws, nobody." So, I didn't. So, what did you do? I sent them to Hong Kong. THE CHAIRMAN. Hong Kong. MR. ZOBEL. That's what he told me during the conversation.. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. Was he referring to the shipment of this gold to Hong Kong when he was already the President? MR. ZOBEL. No, no. This is during the war, because he said, there was no government, no president. That must be during the war, during the liberation.. THE CHAIRMAN. During liberation. MR. ZOBEL. Liberation. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, because... MR. ZOBEL. It must have been. My guess, I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. It wouldn't--it just wouldn't if he must be talking about the shipment of gold from the Philippines to Hong Kong during the war. I mean, that would have been hardly possible. MR. ZOBEL. No, after the war. Liberation. After the war. In fact, we went further and he told me that the first shipment was sent by U.S. Army, Air Force DC-3. He bribed the pilots to fly to Hong Kong. And I would imagine the pilot of the U.S. Air Force, but that's what he told me. Now, whether it is true or not, I don't know. I'm just telling what he told me. THE CHAIRMAN. Did Mr. Marcos also mentioned to you that during his presidency gold was taken from the Central Bank? MR. ZOBEL. No. THE CHAIRMAN. Or transferred it? MR. ZOBEL. No. He never mentioned anything during his presidency to me. THE CHAIRMAN. Apparently the idea was to create a story that the Marcos gold were accumulated from the time he was not yet president of the country? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, during your conversation, several conversations with President Marcos, was there anytime at all that the Kloten Airport, warehouse Freilager Warehouse underneath the Kloten Airport was that ever mentioned by Mr. Marcos in your conversations? MR. ZOBEL. No. I only knew about the Kloten upon reading the papers, in the local dailies. THE CHAIRMAN. But just to clarify, in one of your conversations with President Marcos, he also mentioned that among the countries were his gold has been deposited is Switzerland? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. His answer is "Yes." SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. Don Enrique, it is my impression that the bulk of the gold certificates and dollar deposits of Mr. Marcos and the family were confiscated when he landed in Honolulu? MR. ZOBEL. According to him. He mentioned that to me. That was confiscated in Honolulu some certificates but most were left in Manila, in Malacanang. But what was confiscated here some certificate and several suit cases full of peso bills. But the U.S. diverted the flight from--he told me that they took him to Clark and told him that they would take to Vigan. After about two hours of flight, he asked, "well, why? Then he said, we're going to Honolulu because there is a revolution in Vigan. That's what he told me. THE CHAIRMAN. Did you say, Enriquito? MR. ZOBEL. What? THE NURSE. Enriquito. THE CHAIRMAN. Did you say revolution in Vigan? MR. ZOBEL. That's what they told him. This general accompanied him in the airplane and told him that we cannot take you to Vigan because the government forces are infiltrating Vigan. There is a fight there. For your safety, we'll take you to Honolulu. THE CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the name Roberto Caoili? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I read some of his paper. He sent a letter to President Ramos or Aquino. But I have a copy of his letter. THE CHAIRMAN. What was his letter about? MR. ZOBEL. I forget right now. But it's about, I would guess 15 pages. He said, I will tell you, his excellency where the gold is whether, etcetera, etcetera. THE CHAIRMAN. To your knowledge, is Mr. Caoili still in the Philippines? MR. ZOBEL. I don't know it, but he sent it by mail a copy of his letter many years ago. I have a copy in my house. THE CHAIRMAN. Letter mailed from the Philippines? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. And it has his address in that letter? MR. ZOBEL. What? THE CHAIRMAN. His address. MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. But I have. I know because I was amused of his letter that's why I read it and I kept a copy. THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably we will have a copy of that letter? MR. ZOBEL. I will furnish you a copy. It's unbelievable, but you read it. THE CHAIRMAN. And the name of that editor from a local paper that also spoke the Marcos wealth with you? MR. ZOBEL. No. He showed but he didn't speak to me. He showed me other pictures of the gold bars, some name Surinam, some Hong Kong, different--some in Singapore, the gold bar. Anong pangalan niya? Fernando. He went to my house. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. In any event, even what this person showed to you, well, the pictures of gold bars with various, the names of various.... MR. ZOBEL. Whether with.... THE CHAIRMAN. ...and the gold bars were supposed to have been placed under the custody of Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. No, he just showed me pictures of the gold bars. He didn't make any comment at all. THE CHAIRMAN. So, there was no relationship by.... MR. ZOBEL. No, but....the only thing he told me, these are the gold bars that were taken by the Presidential Command. That's all he told me. THE CHAIRMAN. Presidential Command of the administration or during the presidency of Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. THE CHAIRMAN. So, this person said that these were the pictures of the gold bars that were taken by the members of the Presidential Security Command at that time when Mr. Marcos was President? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. The answer is yes. MR. CHAVEZ. Your Honor, may I be allowed to make a manifestation. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, please. MR. CHAVEZ. The person named Roberto Caoili is the leader of soldiers who were then in their teams who dugged up some bars of gold in various places in Metro Manila--in Montalban, in Laguna, the details of which are setforth in a joint affidavit which he signed, co-signed with 95 others. That affidavit in the case the address of Mr. Roberto Caoili and, therefore, I would like to propose that the appropriate compulsory process be issued to require Mr. Caoili to appear before the Committee to testify on the affidavit that he executed. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. This Committee will hold that advisement and act accordingly when we get back to Manila. I think we should have a break. Five minutes. BREAK : 4:25 P.M. RESUME : 4:45 P.M. THE CHAIRMAN. Let's resume. Mr. Zobel, for the record, what is the quid pro quo here for you? What is it to you? Why are you taking this trouble of, you know, testifying regarding the Marcos wealth, after all everybody knows that you have been a close confidant of Mr. Marcos? And so, people are asking why is Mr. Zobel, you know, testifying now? What is it in for him? MR. ZOBEL. Well, it started for me personally but I feel that I am 72 years old, so I would like very much love that at least I can contribute something to the Philippines to the poor people. THE CHAIRMAN. And in your 62 years of existence, Mr. Zobel, how long have you been... MR. ZOBEL. Seventy-two. THE CHAIRMAN. Seventy-two. MR. ZOBEL. Seventy-two. I wish I were 62. THE CHAIRMAN. How long have you been a paraplegie? MR. ZOBEL. Now, nine and a half years. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, some people are disinclined to believe the figures that are apparently mentioned as the amount of the Marcos gold, what would be your impression regarding this? MR. ZOBEL. Well, you have to analyze that, for example, now the government, press and media say, Imee Marcos, Irene Marcos has 13 billion. Now, I said 35 billion. General Almonte say 20 billion, Imelda Marcos said it takes about 70 billion. So, their guess is good as mine. It came out in the Inquirer, I think, she said, I have approximately 70 billion but I don't know where. Now, that's her relevant statement. I read that on the papers. THE CHAIRMAN. So, are you telling the Committee, Mr. Zobel, that there is basis for this figure of the amount of Marcos wealth running to several billions of U.S. dollars? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I would take gold, assets and dollars over all comments even bank certificates, I would say 100 billion. THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million U.S. dollars? MR. ZOBEL. Hundred billion U.S. dollars. Now, there are many people who say the Philippines have that much gold. I have mentioned to you before somebody told me that this include Nazi gold because the Germans got all the--during the World War II, they got all the gold of the different countries and when Germany was going to be occupied and they were worried about the Allied, they sent the money to Holland. And then when the allied were going to Holland, they sent the money to Surinam. So, now the Yamashita got all Surinam when they included SouthEast Asia. So, that's why Yamashita treasure is not only what they dug in the Philippines, but he brought back and that amounted to a lot of gold. THE CHAIRMAN. In one of your conversations with Mr. Marcos here in Honolulu, from you own knowledge, was there any foreign businessmen who wanted to transact with Mr. Marcos on his so-called gold bar? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I am curious now how they got this information but the day after Marcos talked to me about the gold, the two Vice Presidents, I have the names in the house, approached me from the National Bank of Saudi Arabia, but the Chairman was Maphos who was a close friend of mine. Now, how these two people found about the gold, I don't know, but they said, we do relay to President Marcos that they would buy all his gold at 40 percent discount. THE CHAIRMAN. Forty percent discount? MR. ZOBEL. Forty percent discount. 4 0. Cockwell was the Vice President. THE CHAIRMAN. Cockwell? MR. ZOBEL. Cockrell. And another Pakistani. There were two people. The other one is an Iranian working for the bank. Now, they offered 40 percent. So, I relayed this to Mr. Marcos and Marcos said, "No. Enrique, sabihin mo 30." So, sinabi ko 30, umalis na sila. But how the hell did the National Bank of Saudi Arabia find out?. Now, I found out from the American government that they were really mad of the situation because they said, the Gulf War cost something like 100 million. Now, they imagine what this amount of gold would do 35 billion where you could finance wars worth five times like the Gulf War again. THE CHAIRMAN. And they were talking about Marcos gold in deposit with the United States? MR. ZOBEL. But they said just tell Mr. Marcos that we will buy all his gold. THE CHAIRMAN. No, no. Regarding that last statement of this American friend of yours, that.... MR. ZOBEL. They did not want Saudi Arabia government to get back all the gold because that bold could finance more than the Gulf War. Like I mentioned, the Gulf War was only 10 percent of that total amount. THE CHAIRMAN. Just for purposes of clarity. So, the Arabian business people... MR. ZOBEL. No, the National Bank of Saudi Arabia. THE CHAIRMAN. National Bank of Saudi Arabia. MR. ZOBEL. National Bank of Saudi Arabia headed by Maphos, chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. National Bank of Saudi Arabia headed by Mr. Maphos wanted to buy all the gold of Marcos at--did you say 40 percent? MR. ZOBEL. Forty percent discount. THE CHAIRMAN. Discount. And Mr. Marcos.... MR. ZOBEL. They will pay in cash. THE CHAIRMAN. Will be paid in cash. And Mr. Marcos told you he wanted only at 30 percent. MR. ZOBEL. He would only accept 30 percent discount for all. THE CHAIRMAN. For all. MR. ZOBEL. And they said "No." The Saudi said, "No." THE CHAIRMAN. They wanted 40? MR. ZOBEL. They wanted 40. THE CHAIRMAN. And... MR. ZOBEL. They came to my house, unexpected to my house here in Hawaii. THE CHAIRMAN. Here in Hawaii. MR. ZOBEL. My wife was present. THE CHAIRMAN. And this was shortly before Mr. Marcos died? MR. ZOBEL. This was the date after I talked to him in his house here in Makiki Heights. The day after. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, when was the last time you saw Mr. Marcos prior to his death in terms of may be weeks or months, just to situate your conversation? MR. ZOBEL. February 8, 1989. THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Marcos died in 1989, September if I am not mistaken. MR. ZOBEL. That was in February. THE CHAIRMAN. And so, the last time you saw him was in February. And the last time you saw him he was already in the intensive care? MR. ZOBEL. Intensive care. When he opened his eyes, he looked and smiled, that's all. He couldn't talk. THE CHAIRMAN. He couldn't talk anymore. Was that one of the reasons why some of the documents that you had prepared for him, for example, the Trust Agreement...? MR. ZOBEL. That was before, a week before approximately. THE CHAIRMAN. Could not be signed by him. He was no longer in possession of his normal faculties? MR. ZOBEL. No. When I gave him the document, he could have, it was my belief because he was talking to me. But the doctors, they argued that they cannot certify because he cannot concentrate or know what he is reading more than five seconds. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, he was capable of focusing on any matter only for five seconds? MR. ZOBEL. That was the doctor said. The doctors name--I have the names. Filipino doctors by the way. THE CHAIRMAN. To your knowledge, from the last time you saw Mr. Marcos in February of 1989 until he died in September of 1989, was he able to get out of the intensive care at all? MR. ZOBEL. I don't know if he was in the intensive. He had a private room. So, I guess the doctor--I don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, you were not able to get back to Hawaii anymore after you saw him in February 1989? MR. ZOBEL. No. THE CHAIRMAN. When he died--after he died, did you come back here? MR. ZOBEL. No. I came after he had died, I think six months and later I saw--I saw the airconditioned coffin near the other side of the island. I was impressed because he has a generator there donated by the Filipinos. THE CHAIRMAN. Let us clarify the point of the conditions of the Trust Agreement that he wanted to be buried in the Philippines. MR. ZOBEL. In the Philippines. But especially he told me, "Huwag kang papayag sa Philippine Consulate, ha. Lupa din natin iyan. I want Philippine island." THE CHAIRMAN. So, he did not want to be buried here? MR. ZOBEL. No. He said, I'm afraid, they would do that, and I guess he was afraid that they would do that. THE CHAIRMAN. And the second condition was his family should no longer be sued? MR. ZOBEL. Be sued. THE CHAIRMAN. Prosecuted.... MR. ZOBEL. Prosecuted, sued by the government. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, considering all these events, Mr. Zobel, it would probably be relevant for you to place on record how you feel regarding these incidents particularly on the length of time it was taken for your testimony to be placed on record before an authorized body of the Philippine government. MR. ZOBEL. Well, first, I must say I'm extremely happy and satisfied to the Blue Ribbon Committee headed by you had finally, finally asked me the questions, because before they never wanted to talk to me about it. That's why I would thought what are they hiding. If I will not tell the truth, why don't they want the people to know that Marcos had that gold. We all know he had gold but the government wants to confuse the poor people of the Philippines who don't know anything. This is a story why, because they wanted to divide it among themselves. Yes, I have a tape that I'd like to give you when I first talked about it with Louie Beltran who passed away, Straight from the Shoulder, and another one from Randy David. THE CHAIRMAN. So, yes. You have a copy of a videotape. MR. ZOBEL. VHS. I have it copied yesterday from betamax. THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah. Which shall bear the caption "Interview with two E.Z., that means Enrique Zobel, Louie Beltran, Straight from the Shoulder, this is June 10, 1992, and the Man and the Gold by Randy David." So, there are two video interviews. MR. ZOBEL. Because a lot were advertisement and they were removed. THE CHAIRMAN. And you are submitting this tape to the Committee as part of your testimony. MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Because what is important there is the actual present of General Almonte where he said will be criticizing the government because they didn't want to find the gold. He already add the fact--he could have done it within 24 hours but due to confusing opposite letters to deposit in one bank, to deposit to the other banks . But the banks.... THE CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Almonte was a very important figure during the Ramos presidency. To your knowledge, did he pursue the search for the gold, the Marcos gold, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Well, this was said by him before the elections. But after the elections, silence of everybody. Too much money. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, incidentally, you mentioned that four people were given individually one million dollars worth of gold bars, individually, one each to four people. Would you know why they were given these gold bars? MR. ZOBEL. Naku. I don't know. But talking about the gold, he mentioned that I gave these following people one million dollar because mga "bata ko iyan." THE CHAIRMAN. So, he used the word "Mga bata ko iyan." MR. ZOBEL. Mga loyal bata ko iyan. THE CHAIRMAN. So,... MR. ZOBEL. He said, "Loyal bata" but one of them made him leave the Philippines, the other one took his place as president. That's what I call "really loyal bata." (Laughter). THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably unless there are any other suggestions or questions, we can wind up this portion of Mr. Zobel's testimony and tomorrow, hopefully tonight our stenographer can transcribe the testimonies, so that tomorrow we'll give a copy of the transcript to Mr. Zobel and to Consul General. Mr. Zobel to do corrections or any statements that might have been made or, you know, corrections in the transcript of what he really said. And then we can have the signing tomorrow of this deposition here again in the Consulate. So, hopefully by tomorrow afternoon, the stenographer will be able to finish everything. MR. CHAVEZ. Would it mean just the same, we will schedule to appear here tomorrow? THE CHAIRMAN. Tomorrow afternoon at 2:00 o'clock. MR. ZOBEL. What time. THE CHAIRMAN. The same time, if that is all right. All right. So, the session of the Blue Ribbon Committee is hereby... Probably, Mr. Zobel, would you want to say anything more. MR. ZOBEL. No. Except like I repeat it, I'm very happy that we have some people in the government that are super honest and interested for the poor people. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN. And thank you for that. And I would like to assure you that the Committee will resume--not only tomorrow but also in the Philippines its investigation into this search for the Marcos wealth. And probably we'll need to call on you again especially in Manila where probably most of your papers are located in Manila to aid you in your recollection of the things, considering that many of the things that you testified to took place many years ago. And knowing also that some people are making your testimony- -their testimony before this Committee contingent upon your giving your testimony before us, it would be very helpful to this Committee if we can have some reservations for you to appear at a more opportune time in the Philippines in the near future. So, in behalf of the Committee, in behalf of Senator Flavier, Consul General Falcon, Mr. Galvez, Mr. Rosales, Mr. Frank Chavez, we would like to thank you Mr. Zobel. MR. ZOBEL. Well, thank you very much and I hope I have opened Pandoras box, they say. THE CHAIRMAN. We have some.... MR. ZOBEL. At least I can start it. THE CHAIRMAN. Which you can pursue. Thank you very much. (Applause). THE SESSION WAS SUSPENDED AT 5:30 P.M. RESUMPTION: October 28, 1999 2:00 P.M. THE CHAIRMAN. All right, session resumed. We would like to begin by asking Mr. Zobel if there are additional materials that he might wish to present to the Blue Ribbon Committee regarding the topic that we have been discussing since yesterday. MR. ZOBEL. I have several exhibits. Exhibit "l". Ilabas mo. (Referring to his nurse). THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Zobel said, he had several exhibits to present. We will kindly have those exhibits and we identify them--the last exhibit was number... MR. TAMONDONG. Exhibit "D". THE CHAIRMAN. D. So, this will now be Exhibit "E"-Zobel. MR. ZOBEL. Exhibit l, Gunigundo, when he came to my house, he gave me this that Imelda had offered me five percent. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. Zobel, please identify a so- called "A Memorandum of Understanding" consisting of two pages plus some entries... MR. ZOBEL. In my diary. THE CHAIRMAN. This is your diary. MR. ZOBEL. You will notice that Mr. Gunigundo put the paper at the end of the table and when he left he didn't sign it, but--I would say that I have witnesses who saw that he do that. So, they informed me. THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, just for record purposes, we have marked this Memorandum of Understanding consisting of two pages as Exhibits "E"-Zobel and "E-l". For the second page, and this purportedly is a Memorandum of Understanding executed by and between Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos and children, Imee Marcos Manotoc, Ferdinand R. Marcos, Jr. and Irene Marcos Araneta, represented by Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos, referred to as the first party, and the Presidential Commission on Good Government represented by his Chair, Magtanggol Gunigundo, referred to as the second party, and Enrique Zobel, referred to as the third party. Now, Mr. Zobel, just for the record, will you kindly inform this Committee who this Enrique Zobel is referred to here as the third party. Are you the same Enrique Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I'm the same Enrique Zobel. THE CHAIRMAN. And this document states that the third party, meaning, Mr. Zobel would be entitled to a maximum of five percent taken from the gross recovery before the application of any sharing that may result from a compromise agreement by the second party which is the PCGG represented by Mr. Gunigundo and the first party which are actually the Marcoses. All right. And I would suppose that this Memorandum of Understanding is intended to rebut the statement of Mr. Gunigundo that he never offered any amount as--any amount up to a maximum of five percent to be taken from any gross recovery of the so- called "Marcos Wealth." And for purposes of record, we wish to put into the stenographic notes that this document was signed only by Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos for herself and on behalf of the children, Now, kindly tell us Mr. Zobel, whose signature is that appearing over the typewritten name, Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I was told by him that this is Mrs. Imelda Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. Told by whom? MR. ZOBEL. By Gunigundo. THE CHAIRMAN. So, you were told by Mr. Gunigundo that this was the signature of Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. Also Mrs. Imelda's representative was present, Cherrie Cobarrubias. Cherrie Cobarrubias was present in the meeting. Also present was my assistant Baylon who was sitting here. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, aside from Mr. Gunigundo telling you that this is the signature of Mrs. Imelda Romualdez Marcos, her representative by the name of Cherrie Cobarrubias? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. She was representing Mrs. Imelda Marcos. THE CHAIRMAN. Also told you that this came from Mrs. Marcos. MR. ZOBEL. Correct. THE CHAIRMAN. And your assistant Atty. Baylon was also present? MR. ZOBEL. Correct. He is here now. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. Now, can you tell us why is it that Mr. Gunigundo, you said told you that he was going to sign this document. But this document that you presented does not appear to have the signature of Mr. Gunigundo. MR. ZOBEL. Well, he gave it to me and he put it at the end of the table. You realized that I can't move, I can't read that thing, so I assume--I took his word for it. But the witnesses are all there and saw it. THE CHAIRMAN. And he left after that conference without signing this document, is that what you are saying? MR. ZOBEL. That's correct. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, the second page of Exhibit "E"-Zobel which is marked as Exhibit "E-l"Zobel, has your printed or typewritten name Enrique Zobel, third party, but it does not bear your signature. Can you tell the Committee why is it that you did not sign in this document? MR. ZOBEL. No, because when I noted that he didn't sign, I didn't sign neither. I noticed he didn't sign it the next morning when it was shown to me. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, Mr. Gunigundo appearing before the Blue Ribbon Committee hearing in Manila denied that he offered anything to you. Can you tell us if prior to this--to the delivery of the Memorandum of Understanding to you, Mr. Gunigundo had talked with you? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. No, he did not. He brought this paper over to me because in the telephone call, he called me before and he said, he asked me that question by the telephone. I said, send it to me in writing and he came over. THE CHAIRMAN. And so in that telephone conversation he was mentioning to you the terms--an agreement that would be... MR. ZOBEL. No, no. All he said, Mr. Senator, was I will offer and Mrs. Marcos five percent for him for the information of the gold. THE CHAIRMAN. This was verbally done? MR. ZOBEL. Verbally done. THE CHAIRMAN. And then you asked him to put it in writing. MR. ZOBEL. I said, please put it in writing and send it to me, and then he brought it over. THE CHAIRMAN. And this was the result of that suggestion of yours that he puts his offer in writing to give you five percent of the recovery of any Marcos wealth? MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. I also did not sign it. I know because I was not interested in the five percent. THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Now, I have here with me now--it looks like a photocopy of a diary dated June 1, can you kindly explain what relation has this document with the Gunigundo visit to you? MR. ZOBEL. No. Everytime my nurses put all my appointment everyday in my appointment book, and this is on that day, June 1, the people came to see me. They had an appointment with me. THE CHAIRMAN. And among the people noted here under the caption, "Marcos Gold People"--I cannot read the rest of the annotation but the names are clear, Imelda Marcos and General Kintanar, Secretary Gunigundo and Doy Laurel. MR. ZOBEL. Imelda did not come but Mrs. Cobarrubias came instead. THE CHAIRMAN. And what about General Kintanar. MR. ZOBEL. He was present. THE CHAIRMAN. As well as Doy Laurel. MR. ZOBEL. They were present. THE CHAIRMAN. So, aside from these documents that you have just presented, are there any other evidence which you wish to submit to the Committee? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Yesterday, I gave two tapes. I found in my house here that I have four tapes. First, I gave yesterday, the one of Louie Beltran and Randy David. I also found two more which are more interesting to the Committee which is one by Loren Legarda and the other one by Tina Monzon Palma. Now, the one by Tina Monzon Palma has pictures of Marcos in the hospital here and many more, and I am corroborating what I've said yesterday. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, very good. All right. I think Senator Flavier has some questions to ask. SEN. FLAVIER. Just a few, Mr. Chairman. I glanced over the news items that appeared in Manila relevant to our hearing yesterday, and I thought I would ask these two questions in the interest of clarity and to avoid any misunderstanding of any sort. The first one, Don Enrique refers to the four people that you mentioned--a Crisologo, a Ramos, an Enrile and a Ver. Did you like to repeat, for the record, the incidents because the way it's being treated it is as though you are claiming it as a fact rather than for them to understand that you are only reporting something that Mr. Marcos told you. Would you please repeat that, and for the record, so that our people will understand exactly the circumstance, Don Enrique? MR. ZOBEL. Thank you, Mr. Senator. Now, first for clarity sake, Mr. Marcos told me this in his house or in the hospital during my visit within Honolulu that during the war in Bessang Pass, he got the gold from people. So, that is during the war. That's what he told me. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I complied with my commitment after all that I would tell what Marcos told me. That is what Mr. Marcos told me. Now, I have no proof of whether he has done it or not, I don't know. SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. Don Enrique, I think that is very important, because the way it is being pictured it is as though it was something that happened after the war, long after the war, and by implication, is of recent vintage. But the way I understood you yesterday was the way you are mentioning and I thought that it is a repetition. It is important that this is-- during the war that the incident transpired. MR. ZOBEL. In fact, he further mentioned that if you noticed my statement yesterday, I said that during the war he mentioned there was no government. SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. I recall you mentioning that. So, the matter of tax and reporting became academic. So, that I think is a very important clarification that you have made. The second... THE CHAIRMAN. Before you go to the second point. Perhaps it would also be good in the interest of truth, Mr. Zobel, if we can clarify that the dates on which these gold bars were supposedly given to the persons that were named by you yesterday had not been mentioned by Mr. Marcos to you? Did he tell you that he gave these gold bars during the war, after the war or before the war? MR. ZOBEL. No, he just told me during our conversation that during the war there was no government, he had this given equivalent in dollars of gold, I don't know, but this was given to these four people during--I assume during the war. That is my assumption. THE CHAIRMAN. You assume that it was during the war. MR. ZOBEL. Because he told me there was no government. It has to be during the war, during liberation. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you. SEN. FLAVIER. My second question, Don Enrique, is again the matter of clarification of the way they refer to the Yamashita treasure, because I think a clarification is in order because when it is lumped up generically plus a big Yamashita treasure, they are lumping together even monies that were from Surinam and the others. You may want to annotate this for the sake of clarity and for the record, Don Enrique. MR. ZOBEL. Well, he was talking about the Yamashita treasure regarding what he showed me. Now, that specifically I mentioned yesterday I estimate by counting the ounces and computing that 400 was equivalent to 35 billion. The other part where I said, the 100 billion is by information that I received from witnesses that present themselves in Manila, I mentioned. That they said this money came from Germany, Holland, Surinam, and that Yamashita got them and brought them to Manila. That's why I assume 100 billion. SEN FLAVIER. Yes. So, you were really referring two tranches. MR. ZOBEL. Two tranches. One of 35 and second, the balance of 100. SEN. FLAVIER. Which were accumulated from gold bars... MR. ZOBEL. Mostly from Germany. SEN. FLAVIER. ...from Germany, Surinam and the others. So, I think that clarification is important because it delineate sourcing and some people were saying the figures don't tally. But yesterday it was clear in my mind that the 35 was a calculation you made based on the stock of gold certificates that was shown to you as a proof of capability of repayment of the loan that he was asking you which you estimated at 35 billion. And in addition, there was a second tranch that came from these various sources including Surinam because one of the gold bars, I understand, had an itching of Surinam and, therefore, those two tranches together you estimate including your other information to be in the order of 100 billion U.S. dollars. Would that be a fair summation, Don Enrique? MR. ZOBEL. That is very clear. Now, one thing more is that I based the 35 billion on the certificates he showed to me. I also mentioned that this certificate looked real but I don't know if they were false or not. I do not know. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Don Enrique. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, again, Mr. Zobel, in the interest of two, we have to repeat this question because assuming that the gold bars were given to the persons you named like Mr. Enrile. During the war he was still probably a student. He was not even a graduate of the College of Law of the University of the Philippines, so the likelihood is Mr. Marcos would have not met Mr. Enrile at that time and, therefore, probably we have to situate what you are saying so that we can understand just where Marcos was coming from when he mentioned these things to you. MR. ZOBEL. Well, he mentioned to me while in Hawaii. Now, I don't know whether he gave to Enrile or not. That's what he told me. So, you asked me what the President told me, that's what he told me. THE CHAIRMAN. Ah yes, but now today, just a few minutes ago, you seem to qualify your statement yesterday that the gold bars were given during the war which at that time Mr. Enrile was probably still a teenager at most, and he would not have gone to the College of Law of the University of the Philippines during the war because everybody knows that Mr. Enrile went to the University of the Philippines after the war. And so I'm just trying to situate your remarks so that we can at least try to determine just what would be perhaps the basis of Mr. Marcos statement to you. We are not questioning, Mr. Zobel, your statement that Mr. Marcos mentioned these people and that he gave one gold bar each worth at least one million dollars to the four of them. That, we are not questioning. But we would like to put on record the circumstances as best as we can recall which will show that this is not just a wild claim. Because otherwise if the circumstances are such that Mr. Marcos categorically said, I gave these gold bars to these people during the war or immediately after the war, this could possibly lead to some misunderstanding about the whole thing. MR. ZOBEL. The only thing, Mr. Senator, I'd like to correct when you said Mr. Enrile was a teenager. That's impossible, because he is much older than I am. And during that time I was 17 already, so he could not be a teenager. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. You would still be a teenager if that's the case at 17 or 18 or even 19 before he turns 20. MR. ZOBEL. But I think he is ten years older than I am. I'm 72. THE CHAIRMAN. He is 72, yeah, but Enrile is only 75. MR. ZOBEL. I was 18. MR. CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. MR. CHAVEZ. As a matter of record, I think Senator Enrile graduated from U.P. in 1954. THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah, exactly. MR. CHAVEZ. So, he started law proper in 1950. THE CHAIRMAN. Which was long after the war, I mean, four years after the war was over. All right. Again, we were only just trying to situate the personalities of the persons you have mentioned to place them under a certain period, so that we can more or less determine the veracity of Mr. Marcos's assertion. There is no question about your statement. We believe what you said that Mr. Marcos mentioned this to you, but nonetheless, we owe it to the people to make sure that the statement would come out under the circumstances which would give the statements some validity. In other words, they would not look as if they were just leaked out of the air by Mr. Marcos and passed unto you and you said this before the Committee and the Committee sort of blows it up before the mass media. We do not wish to be projected in that light, Mr. Zobel. That's the reason why we are trying to be a little more discerning on this issue. MR. ZOBEL. I think you are very correct, Mr. Senator. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, also for the record, during the war, was Mr. Ramos already elected? Hindi pa siguro. He is still a cadet. All right. In any event, these are circumstances that Mr. Zobel would not really be concerned about it. It's only that as Chair of the Committee, I believe that the Committee should be cleared about its conclusions which we will draw from the testimony of witnesses coming before us. Senator Flavier, is there... SEN. FLAVIER. No. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, just for the record again, Mr. Zobel, when did Mr. Marcos mention to you that the gold bars, four gold bars were given to Mr. Ramos, Mr. Enrile, Mr. Crisologo and Mr. Ver? Was it in one of your visits to him in Honolulu? MR. ZOBEL. It was specifically the night I went to visit- -I had dinner with him at his house here, Makiki Heights. THE CHAIRMAN. So, it was already after the EDSA Revolution? MR. ZOBEL. O, yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, thank you very much. Do you have anything to suggest? All right. There is a suggestion that this question be raised to you, Mr. Zobel. When Marcos was telling you about the sources of his gold assets, the impression the Committee is getting is that, he told you that these were collected even before he became president. That's the impression that we get. Is that a correct impression? MR. ZOBEL. Well, he said, he always loved gold and he had the collection of some gold, but some gold bar. But I don't know. He only mentioned the word "some." But the majority of it was the Yamashita treasure. THE CHAIRMAN. And which were recovered--the bulk of which were recovered when he was already the president, is that correct? MR. ZOBEL. Recovered part when he was president and part before the liberation from the Sierra Madre mountains. THE CHAIRMAN. Did you get the impression, Mr. Zobel, that the four gold bars that were supposedly given by Mr. Marcos to Mr. Ramos, Mr. Enrile, Mr. Crisologo, Mr. Ver, came from the Yamashita treasure? MR. ZOBEL. Well, he mentioned to me just before he made the statement that he bought bars from the soldiers, 20 dollars per bar. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Implying that these were part of the Yamashita treasure? MR. ZOBEL. Implying, yes, correct. That's an assumption. THE CHAIRMAN. Would it be correct to assume that Mr. Marcos made the impression that he gave the gold bars to Mr. Enrile, Mr. Ramos, Mr. Crisologo and Mr. Ver when he was already president? Can we draw that conclusion? MR. ZOBEL. I honestly don't know. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, the answer is he doesn't know for sure SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. SEN. FLAVIER. Yesterday, you also mentioned, Don Enrique, a phrase that I can no longer recall but it was something like you explained that Marcos justified his giving the one bar each to those four people because they were loyal, "Mga bata kong loyal." MR. ZOBEL. "Mga bata na loyal to me." SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. And the question is, how this loyalty angle came to pass when the loyalty factor was something that occurred during his presidency. It seems not to tally. MR. ZOBEL. I really don't know, but I am only telling what he told me. So, I don't know the rest. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Again, just to situate the testimony a little more, in a more focused manner. Mr. Enrile served in various capacities in the cabinet. I think that you know, Mr. Zobel, is that correct? MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. THE CHAIRMAN. And Mr. Ramos also was in many posts or holding many positions under the Marcos government. That's also correct, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. They're both friend of mine. I have known them for years. THE CHAIRMAN. And so was Mr. Ver who was even, I think, Chief of Staff of Mr. Marcos, is that correct? MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Crisologo, if he is the Crisologo who we have in mind, Congressman Floro Crisologo, for instance, was a political henchman of Mr. Marcos when he was still in Congress as well as when he became the President. Is that not correct, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. I'm sorry, but I don't know Mr. Crisologo. I've never met him. THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, that I think that can be proven as a historical truth that Mr. Crisologo was a long time congressman of Ilocos Sur and a close henchman of the president politically. So, I think we're done, Mr. Zobel. All right. So, again, we'd like to express our thanks to Mr. Zobel for his willingness to testify before this Committee. And Mr. Chavez... So, what we are going to do now is to allow our stenographer to finish the transcription of her notes and after that Mr. Zobel will be given time to review the notes as transcribed before he will be asked to thumbprint again all the pages before our Consul General. Did I see any....Pardon. All right. Yes. Earlier, we also heard that you had communicated to Mr. Bongbong Marcos. In fact, this is part of your testimony where I will quote you: "I wrote a letter to Bongbong today, I have not typed it yet. I'll give you a copy." Would you have a copy now, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. I am being handed a one-page-- two-page document with the caption, "Enrique Zobel, 1475 Ihilao Loop, Honolulu, dated October 28, 1999." The addressee Governor Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos, Office of the Governor, Province of Ilocos Norte, Laoag City 2900. That's the zip code, I think. And it says, "Dear Bongbong." But before I go to the contents, I'd like to find out if the thumbprint over the typewritten name E. Zobel is yours? MR. ZOBEL. That's mine. THE CHAIRMAN. That is the thumb print of Mr. Zobel. And the letter says and I will read because it's a brief letter. It says: "Last October 26, Monday, my employee here in Honolulu, Chuck Barreiro received a phone call from a certain Noel C. Calixto who claims to be representing you (attached is a copy of his business card). Chuck reported to me the following: l. Mr. Calixto told him, "Yung anak ng matanda ko at yung anak ng matanda mo ay nag-usap na. 2. He also told Chuck, "Nag-usap na rin kami nung "Big Hawaiian", OK na planchado na! 3. He asked Chuck who are the people from media coming to Honolulu Coincidentally, Inigo called me about something that night and I took the opportunity to ask him if he talked to you and he said no. I believe that this person could harm you indirectly. Why does he have to lie? What is this all about? Regards. E. Zobel. Witness to the thumbprint, Evelyn Chotangco. P.S. During my deposition last Wednesday, I saw him at the Philippine Consulate. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, let me ask you these questions. What is your understanding about this phrase? Mr. Calixto--this is a certain person who came over to your employee, Mr. Chuck Barreiro. Mr. Calixto told him, referring to Chuck Barreiro, "Yung anak ng matanda ko at yung anak ng matanda mo ay nag-usap na." What is the understanding of that? MR. ZOBEL. That means Bongbong and my son Inigo. THE CHAIRMAN. Have talked. MR. ZOBEL. Have talked. That's what he says. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. And then No. 2, and then he also told Chuck, "Nag-usap na rin kami nung Big Hawaiian, OK na planchado na." MR. ZOBEL. Now, the Big Hawaiian was here a while ago, his name is Larry Mehau. THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, so Larry. So, you are referring to Larry Mehau? MR. ZOBEL. Larry is here now. You could ask him directly, if Bongbong talked to him. THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will come to that. Now, the Inigo name which is mentioned here is your son, Mr. Zobel? MR. ZOBEL. Yes, my son. THE CHAIRMAN. And according to this letter of yours, you talked to Inigo and you asked him if he indeed talked with Bongbong? MR. ZOBEL. No. We called him by telephone to tell me he was going to Australia to visit his sister this weekend and I took the opportunity and said, by the way, did Bongbong call you? He said, "No." THE CHAIRMAN. So the Big Hawaiian refers to Mr. Mehau? MR. ZOBEL. Mehau. He is here. THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably we will ask...We will take a break from the testimony of Mr. Zobel to ask Mr. Mehau if he is willing to answer a few questions regarding this point? Mr. Mehau, will you please come over, Mr. Mehau? Consul General, will you place Mr. Mehau under oath? MS. FALCON. Will you please raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Please state your name? THE CHAIRMAN. You may sit down. Excuse me. Kindly put the microphone so... Kindly state for the record your name, Mr. Mehau, your full name. MR. MEHAU. Larry Mehau. THE CHAIRMAN. And how it's spelled? M e h a u? MR. MEHAU. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Where do you live, Mr. Mehau? MR. MEHAU. In the big island. In Hawaii. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Probably you can give us a forwarding address? MR. MEHAU. P.O. Box 666, Camuela, Hawaii. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Do you know a person by the name Noel C. Calixto, Mr. Mehau? MR. MEHAU. I know of him, yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Have you had any occasion to talk with him in the last few days? MR. MEHAU. Yes, we had breakfast together. THE CHAIRMAN. And what did you talk about if you can share that with us? MR. MEHAU. Nothing as important as it was discussed here. I informed him that I was taking care of Mr. Zobel's security. THE CHAIRMAN. But there was no...anything that could be interpreted to mean that you were talking with Mr. Calixto regarding the Marcos wealth? MR. MEHAU. Not about the Marcos wealth, but about his testimony. THE CHAIRMAN. His testimony? MR. MEHAU. Yes. THE CHAIRMAN. Unless Senator Flavier wants to ask further questions. SEN. FLAVIER. I have a follow up question for Mr. Zobel. THE CHAIRMAN. From Mr. Zobel. All right. Thank you, Mr. Mehau. Thanks a lot. SEN. FLAVIER. Can I ask him now just a short question? THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Don Enrique, yesterday you alluded to an incident purporting to show that there was threat to life referring, I think, to your children? There was...Could you just corroborate because I have a follow up question. MR. ZOBEL. Well, I have had calls from my very close friends of mine to tell me that they overheard that they wanted to harm me or my children or my grandchildren. And please, necessary precaution in Hawaii before the deposition. SEN. FLAVIER. Who was your informant, Don Enrique, who told you? You are at liberty to do so. MR. ZOBEL. Well, I'm sorry, but he asked me please not to mention his name which I promised. SEN. FLAVIER. That would be fine. Since then, Don Enrique, were there any other threats nor incidents that make you believe there was substance to that information? MR. ZOBEL. Not this information but many years ago when I--after Louie Beltran, I got several telephone calls in my house. I just asked the phone number. SEN. FLAVIER. So not the recent one? MR. ZOBEL. Not the recent one. SEN. FLAVIER. The one of Louie Beltran is dated `92, so that was long time ago. But related to this information of threat to you, your children or your grandchildren, there has been no subsequent information or incidents that validate them? MR. ZOBEL. No. SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you very much. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Just for the record, we are marking the letter of Mr. Zobel to Bongbong Marcos dated October 28, 1999, as Exhibit "G"-Zobel and photocopy of the calling card of Noel C. Calixto as Exhibit "G-l"-Zobel. MR. ZOBEL. By the way, the letter I'm sending it through somebody leaving tomorrow for Manila. THE CHAIRMAN. You are sending it to Manila. MR. ZOBEL. Through somebody that is going to Manila tomorrow. To be mailed from Manila to Laoag. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. To Mr. Bongbong Marcos. Yes, Senator Flavier. SEN. FLAVIER. Again, just for clarity, Don Enrique. Yesterday, you mentioned about the Saudi businessmen who wanted to buy all the gold of Mr. Marcos at a 40 percent discount, but Mr. Marcos wanted 30, and therefore, the negotiation fail through. Would you be aware of what happened to the gold certificates after that? MR. ZOBEL. All I know is I saw them and that night before dinner and he had a heart attack and he was taken to the hospital at 2:00 a.m. So, I saw the certificate when he was in his library. The only two people in the library were Teresita and his old valet. SEN. FLAVIER. So, that was the last you know.... MR. ZOBEL. That's the last I know. SEN. FLAVIER. But the certificates were there with Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. No, no. The people in the house was his family were only Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos. Now, this was in his private library. SEN. FLAVIER. I see. But when you saw--when the certificate was shown to you, there was just the two of you and Mr. Marcos? MR. ZOBEL. The two of us and the nurse who showed to me and the houseboy that was serving dinner for us. SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. Thank you for that reply, Don Enrique. On an earlier point, there was this referral to the conversation and the words "planchado na" was used. Can you elaborate for us what that means or what is your understanding of that phrase? MR. ZOBEL. Well, that is the reason why I wrote the letter because I don't understand them. What is planchado na? That they expect me to lie or what? I don't know. That's my first impression. Planchado na ang sasagutin ko. You got what I mean? SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. MR. ZOBEL. That's obvious, you know. That's why I wrote the letter because I don't know myself. SEN. FLAVIER. I see. Thank you, Don Enrique. THE CHAIRMAN. Now, yesterday, Mr. Zobel, you mentioned about certain activities involving the Philippine banking community and you raised some questions regarding the possible meaning of all these movements. Perhaps we'll ask you to venture an opinion as to the reason for this so-called "merging of banks in relation to the sole issue of the recovery of Marcos wealth?" MR. ZOBEL. Okay Now, I'm talking as business on bank all over the world. Nowadays, government are trying to get more bank for more competition. Better rate, better etcetera. Now, in the Philippines, we go exactly the reverse. Now, I was thinking to myself. Why are we doing this? Because this is silly to do this. It's very bad for the country. So, because of my information from close friends that I cannot mention, bankers, they were saying that they want to merge because they want to launder the money that the Central Bank had, that the other bank had--they want to launder it to a few bank and they can only do it by merging honest bank with government banks so that the government will get the information of the honest bank. They become like an example, I don't say this up to the--BPI is merging to Far East Bank. We do know that Far East Bank is owned by many stockholders including the government as they say. So, therefore, they will have access to BPI. Now, being so big, they can assume a big loan. THE CHAIRMAN. When you speak of money laundering, that can cover a lot of things like drugs money, you know, extorted money, or even--probably the return of the Marcos wealth through these merged banks, Mr. Zobel? Would you think as a businessman, in your opinion, that this would be possible? MR. ZOBEL. Well, I will not ignore it. I believe there is no law... THE CHAIRMAN. Could you repeat your answer for the record? MR. ZOBEL. I think there is no law. I think laundering money to the Philippines. So, that's why--this is my personal assumption. This is an ideal situation where very few big bank, no laundering, so it's ideal for laundering. THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, I guess we have exhausted our questions for Mr. Zobel. So, we can call it a day and thank again, Mr. Zobel, for his kindness in favoring us with his presence. And hopefully, because of your testimony here Mr. Zobel, some other citizens could be induced to appear before this Committee, maybe in Manila to amplify on certain points and perhaps share with us their own personal knowledge of the things that you have spoken about this afternoon. So, in behalf of Senator Flavier and the members of our Committee, may we thank Mr. Zobel again. After this deposition taking, we will have our stenographer to transcribe the notes of the proceedings for the review of Mr. Zobel for his thumb printing and affirmation under oath of the contents of the notes before our Consul General. So, very likely, we will be able to do all of that by tomorrow, Mr. Zobel. I hope that is all right with you. MR. ZOBEL. I will be available tomorrow if God willing. THE CHAIRMAN. So, maybe shall we set it for tomorrow afternoon again at 2:00 o'clock. Thank you, Mr. Zobel. MR. ZOBEL. Thank you. THE SESSION WAS ADJOURNED AT 4:30 P.M. CERTIFIED CORRECT BY: PERLA MAYOR Stenographer