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DEPOSITION OF MR. ENRIQUE J. ZOBEL
REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES
CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES
S E N A T E
PHILIPPINE CONSULATE GENERAL BUILDING
HONOLULU, HAWAII
COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS
(BLUE RIBBON) AND COMMITTEE ON BANKS, FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND
CURRENCIES
P. MAYOR I-1 OCTOBER 27, 1999 2:00 P.M.
DEPOSITION OF MR. ENRIQUE J. ZOBEL BEFORE THE SENATE
COMMITTEE ON THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS
AND INVESTIGATIONS AND COMMITTEE ON BANKS, FINANCIAL
INSTITUTIONS AND CURRENCIES (BLUE RIBBON)
PHILIPPINE CONSULATE GENERAL BUILDING
2433 PALI HIGHWAY, HONOLULU, HAWAII 96817
ON OCTOBER 27, 1999, 2:00 P.M.
AT 2:00 P.M., THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON
ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS, HON.
AQUILINO Q. PIMENTEL, JR., CALLED THE HEARING TO ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right, I think we can begin.
This session of the Blue Ribbon Committee will now proceed.
And we are here in Honolulu in connection with the decision of
the Committee to take the deposition of Mr. Enrique Zobel who has
kindly agreed to cooperate with the Committee and inform the
Committee everything that he knows regarding the existence of the
so-called "Marcos Wealth" whatever this might be whether in the
Philippines or elsewhere. And the Committee is proceeding on
the basis of Philippine Resolution Nos. 450 by Senators Sergio
Osme¤a III and Philippine Resolution No. and 458 by Senator
Franklin Drilon.
This hearing today will be the ninth public hearing
conducted by this Committee, and for purposes of record, we have
our usual quorum provider even in Honolulu, Senator Juan Flavier,
who is around--who has arrived this morning and he is now with
us. And we are also privileged to have the Consul General, the
Hon. Minerva Jean A. Falcon, who will in fact be the
administering officer to place the oath, to put Mr. Zobel under
oath regarding his testimony this afternoon.
We also have the Solicitor General of the country, the Hon.
Ricardo P. Galvez, as well as Commissioner from the PCGG, Atty.
Antonio Rosales and, of course, the former Solicitor General
Frank A. Chavez, and the staff of the Blue Ribbon Committee,
Atty. Eddie Tamondong, who is the General Counsel of the Blue
Ribbon Committee; Atty. Emilia Pueyo, who is the Secretary of the
Committee; and Atty. Karl Miranda, who is a consultant of the
Committee, and our stenographer, Perla M. Mayor.
So, we can now proceed with the statements that Mr. Zobel
might make, but before we do that, I would like to present for
the affirmation of Mr. Zobel a 14-page affidavit which I have
here with me and which I will ask Mr. Zobel whether or not this
is his affidavit including the corrections that are found on
certain pages of this affidavit.
And so, Mr. Zobel, may we ask you if this affidavit which I
am presenting to you is your affidavit?
MR. ZOBEL. (Reading the affidavit page by page with the
assistance of his secretary). There are annexes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Where are the annexes? (Referring to Atty.
Tamondong).
MR. TAMONDONG. We have copies of that.
THE CHAIRMAN. Maybe later when he can introduce the
annexes. This is now the very text, `no.
MR. ZOBEL. That's all correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, the Consul General will ask Mr. Zobel the
appropriate questions.
MS. FALCON. Please state your name.
MR. ZOBEL. Enrique J. Zobel.
MS. FALCON. Please state your personal circumstances.
MR. ZOBEL. 1475 Ihiloa Loop, Honolulu, Hawaii
MS. FALCON. Where? Place of birth.
MR. ZOBEL. Manila.
MS. FALCON. Civil status, sir.
MR. ZOBEL. Married.
MS. FALCON. As duly cognizant of this hearing, I would
like to swear you in, sir, at this moment. Will you swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before
this august body, the Blue Ribbon Committee of the Senate of the
Philippines.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Do you affirm the contents of this affidavit?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
MS. FALCON. Having read the affidavit presented to you
consisting of 14 pages, do you affirm the contents of the
affidavit as having been--as your affidavit?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
MS. FALCON. The deponent, sir, having been duly sworn and
the affidavit has been duly attested.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. And probably we go through the
process of thumbprint.
The whole trouble is I don't think you have a [thumb mark here],
stamp pad.
MR. ZOBEL. We have a red one.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, you have already one. Never mind, it's
okay. No matter what you call it. It's all right. Yes, okay.
So, we will ask Mr. Zobel now to thumbprint each and every
page of his 14-page affidavit which he has verified to be his own
and...
MR. ZOBEL. Mabuti nandito si Mr. Rosales, may itatanong
ako. Bakit ang PCGG hindi ako inasikaso noong una. Bakit?
Hindi ikaw, ang boss mo.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, for the record, the 14-page
affidavit of Mr. Zobel has been thumbprinted by him and we would
like to ask Solicitor General Frank Chavez and Mr. Rosales to act
as witnesses, so that...
MR. CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. CHAVEZ. I think that it is customary from Mr. Zobel
staff to verify his affidavit.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Yeah, but this has been done in
our presence anyway, so that's why I feel....
MR. ZOBEL. Iyong mga annex. I have here.
THE CHAIRMAN. The annexes of this affidavit will be
presented during the course of your testimony.
So, we will now proceed with the signing of the witnesses to
the thumbprinting of this affidavit.
MR. CHAVEZ. On each and every page.
THE CHAIRMAN. On each and every page, please.
While Mr. Chavez and Mr. Rosales are signing as witnesses,
we would like to place on record that Mr. Enrique Zobel is a
witness of the Committee. He is not a witness of any particular
person, and it was through the Committee's effort that Mr. Zobel
very kindly agreed to give his testimony this afternoon.
As Mr. Zobel pointed out, there are supposed to be annexes
attached to this affidavit and we will try to get them into the
records as we go through his testimony.
So, for purposes of expediency, we will now ask Mr. Zobel to
make a preliminary statement if he should care to do so.
MR. ZOBEL In June of 1992, I first revealed my talks with
former President Marcos while he was still in exile here in
Honolulu. Our discussions had one objective: The return of the
Marcos wealth to the Philippines through a foundation to be
established for that purpose.
Through television interviews as well as interviews through
the printed media, I detailed our discussions, including elements
of a Trust Agreement that Marcos asked me to prepare. I also
revealed how Mrs. Aquino declined to act favorably on Marcos's
plans, for reasons she would be best positioned to explain. And
I did these because...
THE CHAIRMAN. Naririnig mo ba? Excuse me, excuse me,
because our stenographer is having difficulty. Maybe we should
bring that sound system closer.
THE SECRETARY. We'll give a copy.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, you'll give us a copy. All right. Wait
a minute.
Mr. Baylon will now read the statement of Mr. Zobel for
clarity's sake and so everybody can hear what the statement is
all about, but we will have to place you under oath, Mr. Baylon.
MS. FALCON. Please raise your right hand. (Swears in Mr.
Baylon). Please state your name, address.
MR. BAYLON. Jose Bayani Baylon, 90 Mindanao Avenue, Ayala
Alabang.
MS. FALCON. Personal circumstances.
MR. BAYLON. Born September 25, 1962, Manila, single.
MS. FALCON. Do you swear that you will faithfully read the
statement of Mr. Zobel as prepared?
MR. BAYLON. Yes, I do.
THE CHAIRMAN. Please proceed. Start from page l.
MR. BAYLON. (Reading). Statement of Mr. Enrique Zobel,
Honolulu, Hawaii, October 27, 1999.
In June of 1992, I first revealed my talks with former
President Marcos while he was still in exile here in Honolulu.
Our discussions had one objective: The return of the Marcos
wealth to the Philippines through a foundation to be established
for that purpose.
Through television interviews as well as interviews through
the printed media, I detailed our discussions, including elements
of a Trust Agreement that Marcos asked me to prepare. I also
revealed how Mrs. Aquino declined to act favorably on Marcos's
plans, for reasons she would be best positioned to explain. And
I did these because I felt that time was of the essence: that the
longer we waited to settle the issue of the Marcos wealth, the
more difficult it would be for us to put our past behind and move
on.
It has been over seven (7) years since I first went public,
and to this day nothing substantive has been accomplished.
Even the PCGG has not been honest to the public as, I believe, it
should print in full detail what it found, what it sold and what
arrangement it had made with the cronies after all, taxpayers
have paid for all of these and yet nothing on what they have done
or what funds they have recuperated with transparency to the
general public.
For whatever it is worth, I put myself at the disposal of
the Honorable Senators of the Republic today, here in Honolulu,
hoping that this time around we can finish what we should have
finished long ago.
End of statement.
THE CHAIRMAN . Mr. Zobel, was that a faithful reading of
the contents of your statement made by Mr. Baylon?
MR. ZOBEL. That's correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. That's correct.
MR. ZOBEL. I will give you a copy.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. As copies will be given to the
Committee as well as to media if you want. All right.
So, in your affidavit, Mr. Zobel, page l of your affidavit,
I understand that in October of 1988, former President Ferdinand
Marcos dictated a promissory note for the sum of TWO HUNDRED
FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS that he supposedly wanted to borrow from
you. Would you know what was the intention of Mr. Marcos for
borrowing that amount from you?
MR. ZOBEL. He wanted to borrow that money but I told him
I did not have that kind of money.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, in your affidavit there is a statement
that you also have an Annex "A" of this supposed promissory note,
do you have that Annex "A"?
MR. ZOBEL. I have.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. It's here. I'm handed a piece
of paper bearing the name, Ferdinand E. Marcos Promissory Note
and I'd like to show this to Mr. Zobel to tell us if this is a
reproduction or a--it looks like a xerox copy, a photocopy of a
promissory note which is supposedly Annex "A" of your affidavit.
Is this the Annex "A?"
MR. ZOBEL. That is the xerox, correct, but the original, I
personally returned to him.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, there is a signature at the
bottom of this Annex "A", which we now mark as Annex "A"-Zobel.
Can you tell this Committee whose signature that is, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Teresita Gallego...
THE CHAIRMAN. The one that is at the bottom.
MR. ZOBEL. That's the signature of President Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Then there is a handwritten name at the left
margin of this Annex "A" which reads, Ma. Teresita G. Gallego.
MR. ZOBEL. She is the confidential private nurse. She is
still working in Honolulu today.
THE CHAIRMAN. Private nurse.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. This particular document does not show that
Ms. Gallego signed this document. Was it signed by her?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, it was.
THE CHAIRMAN. It was signed. All right.
Now, in paragraph 2 of your affidavit, there is a--and also
in paragraph l, the name of Dra. Lourdes Pascual is mentioned
prominently in this affidavit. Would you know--can you tell
this Committee what was the work that Dr. Pascual was doing for
the late President?
MR. ZOBEL Well, at first, he was very close to her and
any messages she had he would use Dra. Pascual.. Dra. Pascual
also was his anaesthesiologist. For example, she put him to
sleep when he removed his kidney.
THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell this Committee, Mr. Zobel, where
Dra. Pascual now resides?
MR. ZOBEL. She resides in Quezon City.
THE CHAIRMAN. In Quezon City, in the Philippines. All
right. So, have you been in touch with Dr. Pascual recently?
MR. ZOBEL. About six (6) months ago before we left
Manila.
THE CHAIRMAN. And can you share with this Committee what
was your conversation with her on that occasion?
MR. ZOBEL. No, it was just personal. But I think I talked
to her about if I have to testify in the future, if she would be
willing, she said, she will.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, she confirmed that that she is willing
to testify for as long as you will be with her?
MR. ZOBEL. With her, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, this promissory note which has been
marked as Annex "A" of your deposition taking, Annex "A"-Zobel,
was dictated by President Marcos to Dra. Pascual?
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. I think Dra. Pascual will best
answer that. I know she gave it to me in the office in Manila.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, let us clarify this because
according to paragraph l of our affidavit, sometime in October
1988, former President Marcos in a private meeting with his long
time friend and physician, Dra. Pascual dictated a promissory
note. So, the way it looks, it was Marcos who dictated...
MR. ZOBEL. That was I think because she always do all the
dictation of Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right.
MR. ZOBEL. I think that was she said.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. All right.
Now, this promissory note, in effect, asked you or asked you
to provide Mr. Marcos TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. Did
you provide this amount for Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Of course, I have it.
THE CHAIRMAN. And nonetheless, he gave you the promissory
note but later on retrieved it from you? He got it back from
you.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, that's correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. After you had already taken some photocopies
of the promissory note.
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right.
MR. ZOBEL. One thing I want to mention, that if you notice
the date of that promissory note....
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes.
MR. ZOBEL. It was dated one day before he was indicted
for the U.S.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah. The date here is October 17, 1988 and
that was one day before Marcos was indicted in the United States.
MR. ZOBEL. That's what he told me.
THE CHAIRMAN. I see. Okay. In paragraph 2 of this
affidavit you mentioned that Dra. Pascual arranged for a visit by
you to Hawaii, so that you could speak to the former President,
yourself, and discuss the situation with him. Were you able to
do that?
MR. ZOBEL. At first, I was not interested but when he
told me he was interested to return the money to the Filipino
people, I said, I go there.
THE CHAIRMAN. And you were able to speak with the
President?
MR. ZOBEL. Several times.
THE CHAIRMAN. Several times. Where?
MR. ZOBEL. One time in Makiki Heights and there were times
in the hospital.
THE CHAIRMAN. There is also a name here in paragraph 3 of
your affidavit, Gemmo Trinidad. Just for the record, who is this
Gemmo Trinidad?
MR. ZOBEL. Gemmo Trinidad is a trusted employee of him and
Mrs. Marcos. Supposedly they told me he is the golden arm. He
signs exactly like President Marcos. He stays home in Manila
and still does not have a job.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, in paragraph 4 of this
affidavit, you state that "we discussed many subjects." Who is
this--the pronoun "we", whom does it refer to?
MR. ZOBEL. Marcos and myself.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, you stated also in this
affidavit, paragraph 4, that you asked him how he would pay you
back just in case you lent him the TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILLION
DOLLARS?
MR. ZOBEL. Actually I was curious how he could pay me
back, he had so much money, why will he borrow from me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. ZOBEL. So, he told me he had arranged with the banks
regarding the gold certificate.
THE CHAIRMAN. Gold certificate.
MR. ZOBEL. Gold certificate. That the moment he issued
an order or promissory note the banks would sell the gold to
take care the amount.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, on that particular meeting
with President Marcos, did he show you any gold certificate at
that particular....?
MR. ZOBEL. That's where he called Teresita from his
library and in between books she brought out a folder in a one
and a half inch box that had the certificates of gold. I saw
the certificates. Now, whether it is true or not also I don't
know, but I was embarrassed to ask for a pencil and paper and so
I just calculated mentally the ounces and I ended up to the tune
of approximately 35 billion U.S. dollars.
THE CHAIRMAN. Thirty-five billion U.S. dollars.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, the Teresita that you
mentioned in this paragraph 4 of your affidavit is the same Maria
Teresita Gallego mentioned in this promissory note.
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. In that connection, Don Enrique, did Marcos
provide you with a xeroxed copy of those gold deposit?
MR. ZOBEL. After he showed, he gave them back to
Teresita.
SEN. FLAVIER. And so no documentation was left with you.
MR. ZOBEL. No.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, maybe we should have a break.
Five minutes break. Let's have a break.
BREAK : 2:35 P.M.
RESUMPTION : 2:40 P.M.
THE CHAIRMAN. We resume. And Senator Flavier would
like to ask a question.
Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. Don Enrique, when you saw the gold
certificate, I heard you mention about having made a mental
calculation of the amount and it sounds staggering to me. So,
could you repeat the amount you calculated in dollars?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Because after he showed me I immediately
wrote it and have it as an annex.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. For the record, Mr. Zobel, is
referring to some--is that a handwritten notes?
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ZOBEL. It's a handwritten notes. Hindi ko mabasa ang
sulat, eh.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. So, Senator Flavier will now present
the pieces of paper...
MR. ZOBEL. I have to convert ounces to pounds, pounds--
how many pounds in a bar of gold, so I have that computation to
make. As you will notice I asked the Bank of Hawaii later what
the computation were because I didn't know them. And also the
going price then was about 400 dollars per ounce. Now, that
fluctuate depending on the price per ounce.
SEN. FLAVIER. In these four sheets of paper are the
annotations that per the computations of Don Enrique Zobel, on
the basis of which he made the calculation of a value of 35
billion U.S. dollars.
MR. ZOBEL. Only one page, the other one have all the
scribbled notes, like for example, I asked the President in
writing in front of it, is this room bugged, he said, I had it
debugged. I got it in my scribbled notes.
SEN. FLAVIER. My second question, Don Enrique is that, Mr.
Marcos was trying to borrow 250 million U.S. dollars and you said
that you did not have that kind of money. Did you at any time
more or less haggle, as a more acceptable amount to you and to
him?
MR. ZOBEL. No. Because to start with I wouldn't lend
him what he said.
SEN. FLAVIER. I thought you did not have that money in your
pocket at that time.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will have this batch of papers
consisting of 4 pages be marked as Exhibit "B"-Zobel, the next
page "B-l", "B-2" and "B-3". All right. And with special
emphasis on page....For the record, the 35 billion estimate--35
billion dollar estimate is found on page...
MR. ZOBEL. Anyway, I don't know where I have here but it
would approximately be 35 billion.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. In any event, you have some
calculations put down in writing and we will have this marked for
our purposes. Exhibit " B"-Zobel, "B-l", "B-2" and "B-3".
Now, did you--is it correct that you asked Mr. Marcos if the
gold deposits were evidenced by bearer shares or certificates?
MR. ZOBEL. No, I did not because I was curious.
THE CHAIRMAN. The reason I asked that because is that--
paragraph No. 8 of your affidavit, page 2, you state here, "I
asked him in a scribbled note if his gold certificates were
evidenced by bearer shares or certificate? And you have an Annex
"C" according to your...
MR. ZOBEL. I tell you, I forgot some facts.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, that's right. So, you indeed asked him
in writing. Why did you have to write it down? Why did you not
speak it out?
MR. ZOBEL. Because this was all read. Before I asked it,
after writing I got tired and I asked him, I'm writing this
because this place is bugged, that's what he answered, and then
hindi na ako nagsulat. Then we talked.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, that is how the question was raised by
you whether or not the room was bugged at that time?
MR. ZOBEL. That's right.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, and his reply to you was
the gold certificates were not in bearer shares or certificates
because according to him it was a contract whereby he needed
money he could get the money from that source and they would in
turn sell ounces of gold to replace in cash, correct?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, you also indicated in the
same affidavit that at one point your discussions turned to the
issue of the U.S. court case against Mr. Marcos? And did you ask
him....
MR. ZOBEL. No. That's why I explained before that, he
said, he needed the money to pay his staff here before the
court indicted him in the U.S. So, he wanted it right away.
THE CHAIRMAN. He needed the money to pay for his staff
here in Honolulu?
MR. ZOBEL. For his staff. He said he had approximately
300 people in Honolulu and he needed to pay their monthly
salaries.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. You also indicated in the same
affidavit, paragraph 10, that you suggested to him the
establishment of a foundation for the interest of the Filipino
people. Can you tell this Committee what his reaction to that
suggestion?
MR. ZOBEL. He said, that was an excellent idea and, in
fact, he has--if I do this, would you please be the chairman. I
said, Mr. President, if I am the chairman, I will be sued right
and left by the people in Manila for envy, so please why don't
you choose someone Filipinos will not sue. Then he asked me
who? I said, well, the Vatican. So, he said, excellent idea.
Could you please arrange to talk to Papal Nuncio in Manila, who
was Torpigliani then.
THE CHAIRMAN. And from your affidavit, in paragraph 11,
you also asked him why he was not tapping his cronies?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Well, I was curious and I said, I've
always been against you, I've criticized you, I've written
articles in the paper against you, why talk to me now. Why the
sudden change? And he said, "Well, Enrique, please forgive me."
Tears falling down his eyes and he said, your the only person who
ever told me the truth. My cronies always told me, "Don't talk
to Enrique, because he will not tell you the truth."
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, regarding the cronies of Mr. Marcos, can
you tell this Committee if you have any conversation with them
regarding any of his cronies receiving any gold bar of Mr..
Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, you have to realize I knew Marcos before
he became Congressman. So, I could talk on a one-to-one basis,
and I told him, "Why is it you said you have your cronies, you
can depend on them, you asked me to start the foundation?" He
said, "Well, most of them, they double-crossed me especially
iyong brod ko sa U.P." What's his name? Benedicto. Is that
Benedicto and several others. He also mentioned to me that in
the gold, he said, "I gave gold bars to Crisologo, because they
were loyal to me, Ponce Enrile and Ramos, and General Ver. I
gave gold bars approximately worth one million dollars.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Just for clarity sake, would you
remember when President Marcos reportedly gave the gold bars to
the people you have just mentioned? Was that on the onset of the
declaration of Martial rule or was it after subsequent of the
declaration of martial rule?
MR. ZOBEL. I honestly don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. Just for clarity, Don Enrique. You just
mentioned that Mr. Marcos intimated to you that he had given one
million dollar worth each of a gold bar to Crisologo, Enrile,
Ramos and Ver.
MR. ZOBEL. General Ver.
SEN. FLAVIER. General Ver. Is that a correct inkling on
my part?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. That was what he told me. Now, whether he
did it, that I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. And just for the record to clarify. Who was
the Crisologo that was mentioned by President Marcos to you?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he just said Crisologo. I don't know we
met.
THE CHAIRMAN. Who was the Enrile mentioned?
MR. ZOBEL. Johnny Ponce Enrile.
THE CHAIRMAN. Juan Ponce Enrile?
MR. ZOBEL. Senator Ponce Enrile.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Ponce Enrile. Who was the Ramos
that was mentioned?
MR. ZOBEL. President Ramos. Ex-President Ramos.
THE CHAIRMAN. And Ver?
MR. ZOBEL. General Ver, who passed away recently.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now,...Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. When you saw the gold certificates that were
shown to you in a folder, did you have reason to believe that
they were authentic or were they xeroxed copies? And I am
assuming you are familiar with the appearance of gold
certificates?
MR. ZOBEL. They were authentic. No question. But as to
whether they were false or not, I don't know. But my feeling,
honestly, is that I spoke to him when he showed me between 8:00
and 11:00 p.m. and he had a stroke where he went to ICU--U.S.
doctor would know, he went to ICU at 2:00 o'clock in the morning.
So, I guess, he felt he was going to die. In fact, kiddingly, I
talked before that and I said during the conversation where we
had, and I said, "the way you put all your assets, I think one
trust from ...., one trust from BVI, one trust from Liberia, one
altogether all the way. So, it's very hard to follow up.
Nobody can't. But I think, Mr. President, you made one mistake,
you thought you'll never die." He laughed and said, "you're
correct.
SEN. FLAVIER. So, what I hear you're saying, Don Enrique,
is that you have reason to believe the certification authentic
and his words to you were honest because it's like a dying man's
declaration?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, correct. Not only that. But later on, in
the, what do you call that, in the Vatican trust, he stated that
this money would only go to the Philippine as long as two
conditions are met: One, he be buried in the Philippines not in
the Consulate Philippine soil. Be buried in the Phillippines.
Second, that his family will not be pursued.
So, obviously he felt he was going to die.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, let's pursue the question
of the establishment of a foundation. Can you tell this
Committee whether or not the foundation was, in fact, formed?
MR. ZOBEL. It was not formed. The Papal Nuncio, I was
able to talk to him through Father Alarcon who brought me to his
residence in front of La Salle, and he went to Rome. He first
came, talked to the President and the President made a confession
with him but he can't tell to the priest. But he went to Rome
and he got the foundation but instead of the Vatican, it was
Torpigliani, which was the--he had the title changed in Rome. It
should be the trust of the Vatican. That was the only thing.
Otherwise, everything was in order.
Now, the President was not able to sign because the doctors
said he could understand then more than four seconds.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, let's clarify this thing.
The foundation, Mr. Zobel, was supposed to be authorized by or
would include the Vatican, is that what I understand from your
statement?
MR. ZOBEL. No. The Vatican was asked to be the chairman
through the representative in the Philippines and that would be
Msgr.Torpigliani.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, yes that's a little clear now. That
the foundation was to be chaired by the Vatican through the Papal
Nuncio of the Philippines, at that time Bruno Torpigliani.
MR. ZOBEL. He will be the chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Who will be the chair of the foundation. Can
you tell this Committee who were supposed to be the members of
the foundation?
MR. ZOBEL. Dra. Pascual, Father Alarcon and myself.
THE CHAIRMAN. Dra. Pascual, yourself and Father Alarcon.
Kindly tell this Committee Father Alarcon is alive?
MR. ZOBEL. He is alive. What is his position in Manila?
(Referring to Mr. Baylon).
THE CHAIRMAN. So, he is in Manila.
MR. ZOBEL. He is in Manila.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right.
MR. ZOBEL. He was then in Tala Leprosarium and later on San
Beda, and now he is one of the presidential advisers of Erap.
THE CHAIRMAN. Right now?
MR. ZOBEL. That's what J. B. tells me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, but it's better that we limit your
testimony to what you had given.
MR. ZOBEL. That's correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. It will have more weight.
Now, regarding the formation of this foundation, did you
have to employ the services of a lawyer?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I employed the services of Mr. Mike
Garcia, who is a lawyer in Honolulu. In fact, he charged me the
bill because Marcos died so I have to pay the bill which is 4,000
dollar. I have the receipt here.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Here is a document consisting
of...
MR. ZOBEL. I must state that Mr. Garcia said, if it is for
Mr. Marcos. I don't want to do anything, but if it is for you I
will. So, I said, okay, it's for me.
THE CHAIRMAN. ....consisting of 7 pages. The first
document is a recounting of the events leading to the charges
that were forwarded to you in the amount of 4,519.95 dollars, is
that correct?
MR. ZOBEL. That's correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. This is the amount of legal fees...
MR. ZOBEL. Legal fees. Because the President wanted the
draft the next morning. So, the lawyer had to work overnight.
THE CHAIRMAN. Which the law office of Frunzi, Yee and
Garcia, billed you for having put that proposal to create a
foundation in legal form? All right. I have here before me as
part of this batch of documents a letter of transmittal, I mean,
that's the caption of the document, dated February 1, 1988, 1989,
addressed to Mr. Enrique Zobel, l475 Ihiloa Loop, Honolulu,
Hawaii. Kindly take a look of this if this is the bill that---or
this is the letter of transmittal was received by you bearing the
signature of Mike Garcia at the bottom of the page?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, that is correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. The answer is yes. And the attached document
is a letter of transmittal is denominated as special power of
attorney purportedly to be made in the name of Ferdinand Edralin
Marcos. Will you kindly take a look at this page document
attached to the letter of transmittal. Is that the same document
that you...?
MR. ZOBEL. That is the same. Now, this was suggestion of
this lawyer, Mr. Mike Garcia, but Mr. Marcos never signed this.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Marcos did not sign this document. Can
you tell this Committee why Mr. Marcos did not sign?
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. This document was supposed to be a special
power of attorney.
MR. ZOBEL. Maybe somebody else.
THE CHAIRMAN. Where, according to this document any and all
precious metals and all other properties which I have entrusted
for deposit for safekeeping, as well as all gold that I may own
wherever situated will be placed under the custody of his
attorney-in-fact? You know who this attorney-in-fact would be,
Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. I mean, Zobel, Exhibit "C", "C-l" "C-2"-
Zobel. Now, I understand also that on one occasion you had
talked with a certain Delly Castillejo. Can you tell this
Committee who this Delly Castillejo?
MR. ZOBEL. Delly Castillejo is the sister of the wife of
Pedro Cojuangco, the brother of Cory Cojuangco, which is a friend
of mine, both husband and wife. And I called him through Delly,
invited Delly and him to my house in Alabang, and I showed him
the idea of Marcos to put a foundation. He loved the idea and he
said, "Well, Enrique I'll get back to you in two days and give me
a chance to talk to my sister." After two days came, walang
reply. Nothing happened. And now I heard from the....these are
rumors that Cory were not interested because babango daw si
Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, you also stated in your affidavit,
paragraph 17, that you had met with then Vice President Salvador
Laurel. Can you tell this Committee what was that meeting all
about?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, there were many meetings. In fact, Doy
Laurel came to Honolulu to talk to the President twice in the
hospital. Now, we both had agreed that to tell Cory that if she
signs a letter to represent the Philippine government to the
banks, to the Swiss bank specifically, and the heirs of Marcos
had also agreed to sign, that the Swiss bank could release
immediately the money, but Cory was not interested.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, regarding your meeting with
Vice President Laurel, can you tell this Committee what was the
tenor of your conversation with him?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. There were two things--two important
things came about. One was to send two doctors, I forgot the
names, and I have the record of their flight, everything was
arranged. To check if Marcos could really talk or not, because
the doctor here said, he could not and so we could not establish
the foundation. But at the airport, then health secretary
Bengzon stopped them at Immigration, didn't allow them to board,
upon orders of Cory.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did you and the Vice President, then Mr.
Laurel talk about the possibility of the return of Mr. Marcos to
the Philippines?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, he did. He told Cory because he was still
in the government. He told Cory that he would seek no objection
to returning Marcos but Marcos said, I want to return when I'm
dead. Now, the one that said, "over my dead body" was Ramos.
THE CHAIRMAN. You are referring to the former President?
MR. ZOBEL. Ex-President Ramos.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, the former President was not in favor of
the return of Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Even if dead.
THE CHAIRMAN. Dead or alive, is that what you mean?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. You mentioned earlier, Don Enrique, that
there were two conditions imposed by Mr. Marcos, namely, one is
the return to the Philippines and the safety of his family. Were
these conditions...?
MR. ZOBEL. The condition of his family in regards to
suits.
SEN. FLAVIER. To suits. Were these two conditions
incorporated in any document that merged?
MR. ZOBEL. I guess, yes. They were incorporated and also
that letter was given to Doy Laurel.
SEN. FLAVIER. I see. In sum, the foundation never really
got born, so to speak?
MR. ZOBEL. Because the doctors did not allow him to sign.
But you see that foundation of his gold was revocable until the
government had agreed on the two conditions, that would be come
automatically irrevocable.
SEN. FLAVIER. I see. And so it was that illness that
prevented the final signing of the foundation papers?
MR. ZOBEL. No. His health, the local doctor would not
certify....They would certify that he was capable of knowing he
was signing.
SEN. FLAVIER. I see. It was the certification that he
was lucid and able to sign that document?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
SEN. FLAVIER. Those two doctors I happened to know, then
Dr. Sawit and Dr. Alano were not allowed to come?
MR. ZOBEL. Were not allowed to leave Manila Airport when
they had the tickets on hand.
SEN. FLAVIER. Did you get an inkling of why?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, according to Doy, he told me that the
doctors were stopped by an order to Immigration from Secretary of
Health which was Bengzon. Bengzon ba?
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes.
MR. ZOBEL. Bengzon. That's what the Vice President told
me.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ZOBEL. The tickets and the flight number they were
taking nandiyan sa notes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Flight number, yes. Oo. Of these two
doctors.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, did you have any other conversation
with Vice President Laurel after that, after the two doctors were
prevented from leaving?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, specifically what subject I say because
I used to see Laurel about twice a week then, and so we had a lot
of conversations.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, recently, let us fast track as it were
the events. Did Mr. Laurel see you either in the accompany of
some PCGG officials or by himself?
MR. ZOBEL. No. He came to see me with some PCGG
officials. I have the note. Kailan ba ang petsa in my notes.
I can furnish you a copy. He came with--do you recall the
names, Evelyn? Maybe...
THE CHAIRMAN. Never mind. The Chair of the PCGG prior to
the last two chairmen of the Presidential Commission on Good
Government was Mr. Magtanggol Gunigundo. Do you remember if Mr.
Magtanggol Gunigundo ever came to your house or anywhere to see
you regarding the Marcos wealth?
MR. ZOBEL. He came to my house, he had dinner and he was
accompanied by the one in charge in the airport during the
Marcoses time, Tabuena, by a lady by the name of Cherrie
Cobarrubias, General Kintanar.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. What was the mission of Mr.
Gunigundo when he went to see you?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I think he was fishing because he wanted
to know if I knew of the whereabouts of the gold. So, I said,
first, we do--please put it in writing and he exactly anticipated
that and he gave me a letter which he and Imelda. Now, Imelda
signed and he said he will sign before leaving but he did not.
But he offered me to 5 percent commission. I can furnish you a
copy of that.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, in that particular visit of
Mr. Gunigundo, just to clarify
you were offered a 5 percent commission for what?
MR. ZOBEL. To tell them the location of the gold which I
don't know. So, after he gave me the letter, I really don't
know.
THE CHAIRMAN. But the first time he came over to see you
that offer was not yet in writing?
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. No, no. He brought it with
him. But he did not sign it. He said he will sign it upon
leaving, but I can't move, so he left at the end of the table and
when I got the letter, only Mrs. Marcos signed, but he did not.
He brought the letter because his name was at the bottom.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, in one of the hearings of the Blue
Ribbon Committee in Manila, Mr. Gunigundo denied that he ever
offered you any percentage of the Marcos wealth which will be
recovered upon your information?
MR. ZOBEL. I'm sorry, Mr. Senator, but he is a big liar.
And, in fact, I have all these witnesses that would testify that
he offered me that. In fact, my nurse here was--ah, no, wala ka
doon. (Referring to his nurse). Fernando pala. The male nurse
JB, was there.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, was Vice President Laurel present at
that time when Mr. Gunigundo made that offer?
MR. ZOBEL. I'm not sure, but you see Vice President Laurel
came once before because--once before he came and then Gunigundo
came. Whether Laurel was present with Gunigundo, I think so but
I'm not sure. I think so.
THE CHAIRMAN. What about Mrs. Imelda Marcos, did she go to
you in connection with the Gunigundo offer?
MR. ZOBEL. No. She only sent me a signed letter but she
was represented by Cherrie Cobarrubias.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, she was not represented by...
MR. ZOBEL. By Cherrie Cobarrubias.
THE CHAIRMAN. Cherrie Cobarrubias. Can you tell this
Committee how do you know that Mrs. Cobarrubias was representing
Mrs. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I don't know, but that's what they told
me so...
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. She told you anyway?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, she told me. And it was also certified
by Tabuena. I know Tabuena is very close to Mrs. Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tabuena was also present at that time?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, he was.
MR. CHAVEZ. Your Honor, just to assist the Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes.
MR. CHAVEZ. Cherrie Cobarrubias appears as one of the
signatories to so many documents that had already been submitted
to the Senate Blue Ribbon Committee. As a matter of fact, she
is a signatory as a witness to the two agreements dated December
28, 1993 which were eventually nullified by the Supreme Court.
She is also a signatory of Mrs. Marcos and Kintanar to an offer
that they made to Mr. Gunigundo sometime in 1995 which was also
already been marked as evidence.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right, good. Now, ...yeah, I think we
can have a break.
BREAK : 3:20 P.M.
RESUMPTION :
3:45 P.M.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. I think we can resume.
Mr. Zobel, will you kindly tell this Committee if you
remember the terms of that--the term of sharing of the wealth of
Mr. Marcos as put into the foundation agreement?
MR. ZOBEL. It's in the Vatican trust. But if I recall
right, 10 percent would go to the Marcos family, the wife and
children.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ten percent.
MR. ZOBEL. Ten percent would go to the Vatican for the
poor people and in the missions.
THE CHAIRMAN. And in the...
MR. ZOBEL. In the missions for the Vatican to dispose of.
One percent to the people in Hawaii that were loyal to him. And
then I don't know. But the rest would go to the foundation to be
used specifically for schools, hospitals and infrastructure and
agriculture.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, apparently only 10 percent
of the supposed Marcos wealth would go to the Marcos family.
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. Would you know if there was any--or was
this accepted by the Marcos family to your knowledge?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, they have no choice but on that way.
But they--Mrs. Marcos asked Dra. Pascual if I could say 15, of
course I said, "No, because that's what the President said. I'm
sorry, if they really wanted more than ten, it can't be.
THE CHAIRMAN. Are we getting correctly the impression that
Mrs. Marcos objected to 10 percent?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I don't think she objected, but she wanted
a little more.
THE CHAIRMAN. She wanted a little more. And your reply to
that was that's not possible because Marcos wanted it that way?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
SEN. FLAVIER. In an earlier section you were also alluded
in your deposition that the matter of the foundation came as a
surprise to Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. No, because I must state that the
President told me, "Enrique, please swear to me that you will
never tell my wife or my family about the gold." But because he
was dying, I had no choice and I had to leave. So sabi ko,
"pakiusap na lang, kung bago mamatay kung sakaling gumaling,
pirmahan ito."
SEN. FLAVIER. But later, you entrusted to Bongbong the
matter of securing the signature?
MR. ZOBEL. I entrusted to both of them, together, mother
and son.
SEN. FLAVIER. Together, mother and son. But even that
was never signed.
MR. ZOBEL. Never signed, because he never get out of ICU.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. And just for the record, would you recall any
reaction made by Bongbong Marcos regarding this sharing?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I recall very well that he looked at it
and he said, "Bakit hindi sinasabi sa amin ng tatay ko ito."
That's all I heard. I was further sad. I said, "Well, that is
the family relation already and not my duty to investigate.
THE CHAIRMAN. In your understanding, what would you--what
did Bongbong mean by "Bakit hindi sinasabi ng tatay namin ito?"
MR. ZOBEL. Well, the way I would take of it he never knew
that his father had that much money or that much gold.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, going back to the gold certificates,
can you tell this Committee if you have seen the gold
certificates yourself? Do you remember if there were any
mention of any banks which--were the depository of this gold?
MR. ZOBEL. No. I recall that--because I did not have
time to look, I mean, it was quite thick but I scanned on that.
I looked---I was only interested in the ounces and the location,
and the locations were all over the world. They have at
Portugal, the Vatican, Spain, U.S. Treasury, all over. They had
Germany. So, you may have all over the world. They had in
Solomon Islands.
THE CHAIRMAN. Switzerland.
MR. ZOBEL. Switzerland, O yes. Switzerland.
THE CHAIRMAN. Do you recall if the name of the Union Bank
of Switzerland was ever mentioned?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I know Union Bank very well.
THE CHAIRMAN. Was it mentioned in one--among the
certificates that you saw?
MR. ZOBEL. No. It is not mentioned---I just saw in the
certificate countries. I didn't see the owners or the banks.
THE CHAIRMAN. Would you know if Mr. Marcos obtained any
deposit in terms of cash or anything of value with Philippine
banks?
MR. ZOBEL. No, he didn't tell me of Philippine banks.
THE CHAIRMAN. In your association with President Marcos,
did you ever come across a lady by the name of Fe Roa Jimenez?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. She used to work in the Palace. I don't
know. I used to see her before during Marcoses. At that time
Marcos was the President she is always in Malacanang.
THE CHAIRMAN. Do you know if Ms. Fe Roa Jimenez still
alive?
MR. ZOBEL. I think so but I really don't know. I know
she was very close to Imelda.
I do have a certificate that--I don't recall whether
President Marcos first gave it to me or somebody else, but it
will be a U.S. Treasury deposit. Saan nandoon? (Referring to
his female nurse).
THE CHAIRMAN. The U.S. Treasury and you have a copy of it?
All right. Mr. Zobel affirms that he has a copy of it.
All right. Just to complete your testimony in this regard,
you saw a certificate of deposit with the U.S. Treasury, Mr.
Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. I have it here . You can have it. Now,
whether it's real or not, I don't know. But I don't remember
honestly whether Marcos firstly gave it to me or somebody else.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So you have this certificate and
I am now handed these two-page document which says, FCD
International Certificate, B and CCD U.S. Treasury, B and CPLD
Federal Reserve Note, BC International transaction, and the name
of the depositor is Mr. Ferdinand Marcos. The amount of the
deposit is--maybe if you can tell us, just what is the amount
stated here, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, that hindi ko mabasa. FCD deposit U.S.,
ano ito, 16....l6l,000,000
THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred sixty-one million.
MR. ZOBEL. One hundred sixty-one million. Only one
deposit, one certificate. That is million I'm sure.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Flavier, kindly tell us the figure?
MR. ZOBEL. You notice also that the certificate has been
renewed several times.
THE CHAIRMAN. Renewed several times.
MR. ZOBEL. That sometime confusing. This is very rare
to have renewals, renewals every year.
SEN. FLAVIER. The U.S. deposit, Mr. Chairman, is U.S.
dollars l6l,000000 with a dash, meaning, that was the end. One
hundred sixty-one million dollars international plus the dollar
transaction.
MR. ZOBEL. Correct. And the second page , you see the
interest paid per three-day.
THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi na mabasa. Now, can you tell this
Committee whether or not this particular document was given to
you in this form, meaning to say, a photocopy?
MR. ZOBEL. Photocopy which I have in Manila. It's very
clear than that. That is my xerox.
THE CHAIRMAN. This is your xerox copy.
MR. ZOBEL. My xerox copy, because all my originals are in
Manila.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, will you kindly show to
the Committee that particular--the first document that was given
to you regarding this transaction?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. And are you not aware whether this document
was ever involved in the rackettering case against Mrs. Marcos?
Would you know, Mr. Zobel, if this was involved?
MR. ZOBEL. No, I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, if this was not involved in the
rackettering case of Mrs. Marcos, this will be the first time
that the U.S. Treasury would be involved in the handling of the
Marcos wealth as a depositor? All right. So, we will have
this marked as Exhibit "D"-Zobel, "D-l".
MR. ZOBEL. Mr. Senator.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. ZOBEL. You asked me before if I knew anything in the
Philippines.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, not with Marcos but through very, very
reliable sources. I hear that the Central Bank had a lot of
money deposited and they invested it in Singapore, bonds. Now,
as a banker, this bring to my attention. The other bank that
said to have a lot of deposit the Metropolitan Bank.
Now, my point would be this. Because this is now the
thing, it's because of my curiosity why in the Philippines is the
government trying to merge all the banks while the rest of the
world, they are wanting more bank because not a monopoly now.
The bigger they are, the bigger they fall. So therefore, I think
they are planning a laundering operation because when you control
only four, five big banks then the laundry of the Central Bank,
if it's true. Now, why is it in the Philippines is going an
opposite, why not all the banks all over the world ? Why?
That's my question.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, let's try to clarify that.
In what sense did you mean that the Central Bank was involved in
the laundering of the Marcos wealth?
MR. ZOBEL. No, no. I've only heard this as a rumor, but
this rumor would rather happening and make sense.
THE CHAIRMAN. And in what capacity did this Metropolitan
Bank get more?
MR. ZOBEL. This person told me that the deposits in the
Philippines of Marcos are in the Central Bank and Metropolitan
Bank. That's all.
THE CHAIRMAN. In the Central Bank and Metropolitan Bank.
MR. ZOBEL. It so happened that Metropolitan Bank is the
biggest bank in the Philippines now. Be curious. It only takes
and add into one thing and another.
THE CHAIRMAN. Just for the record. Mr. Zobel, can yoiu
tell us who owns Metropolitan Bank, did you know? If you know?
MR. ZOBEL. It's a Chinese by the name of--anong pangalan?
Ty. George Ty.
THE CHAIRMAN. I understand that among other events that
caused you some frustrations was the fact that reportedly the
Aquino government did not do anything to really recover the
Marcos wealth. Can you amplify on that, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I think in ascendant you can say personal
pride was more than national pride. I think you can read the
meaning of that.
THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us of your knowledge if Mrs.
Marcos, I'm sorry, Mrs. Aquino during her term as president sent
any emissary to talk or negotiate with Mr. Marcos here in Hawaii?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, she said, "Iyong dalawang..." I have it
in my note. The two people from government, Sumulong and
Tanjuatco. But Marcos rejected their offer because according to
him, that's one thing he told me, they were asking for 10 percent
commission. That's why he said, "no way."
THE CHAIRMAN. So, that was according to Mr. Marcos, they
were asking 10 percent of whatever is recovered?
MR. ZOBEL. Whatever is recovered by the Philippine
government.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did you have occasion to pursue that
particular information of Mr. Marcos either to verify or to
discuss more lengthily?
MR. ZOBEL. No. The only person I told it and we
discussed it thoroughly was with Doy Laurel.
THE CHAIRMAN. Was with Doy Laurel.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. I told that to Doy and Doy confirmed
it.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, immediately prior to the taking of this
deposition, were you bothered by any person by way of calls or
direct conversation with you regarding the subject matter of this
depositon?
MR. ZOBEL. Oh! I had a lot of calls, I had a call that
they would kidnap my children. I don't believe in that. Screw
them. Excuse the language.
THE CHAIRMAN. We will strike out the unparliamentary.
But never mind, it's his description how he feels about it.
And you have a son in the Philippines, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. And he is working with San Miguel?
MR. ZOBEL. No, no. He is the director of San Miguel.
He is working with E. Zobel Inc., our company. He has operates
it.
THE CHAIRMAN. And in one of the calls that was made to
your house here in Honolulu, was your son mentioned by the caller
in any respective order?
MR. ZOBEL. No, but there is a certain caller that called
my man who is here about my son and Bongbong had talked, but I
said, I don't know. By coincidence, my son called me about
something else and I answered, has Bongbong called you, he said,
"No." So, that's a lie.
In fact, I wrote a letter Bongbong today, I have not typed
yet. I'll give you a copy.
THE CHAIRMAN. You wrote Bongbong?
MR. ZOBEL. I wrote Bongbong.
THE CHAIRMAN. Aha?
MR. ZOBEL. To ask him why this person asked these
questions. What is he hiding. What he is up to?
THE CHAIRMAN. Some people are questioning why it is only
now that your testimony is being proferred to a government body
like the Blue Ribbon Committee? Why not in some earlier years,
Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. That I don't know. But an educated guess,
the government doesn't want the Filipino people to know the
truth. That's my feeling.
SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
SEN. FLAVIER. Related to that, `no. An earlier point is,
your revelation yourself which came after 1992. And the
legitimate question is, why did you wait till then which I recall
you revealed through a TV program....
MR. ZOBEL. Two TV programs..
SEN. FLAVIER. Two TV programs of Randy David and the late
Louie Beltran--these were all after 1992. The question is
related to my Chairman's question. Why did you not reveal it
earlier?
MR. ZOBEL. Because nobody in the government was
interested. They didn't want to listen to me. So, they do not
listen, why talk.
SEN. FLAVIER. How about the fact that there was an
elections in 1992?
MR. ZOBEL. Regardless. They were not interested because
rumors again, rumors, you see that all this money is a fraud.
The Philippine government cannot get it. Now, they wanted to
divide it abroad without part to the Philippines. That's a
rumor. I've heard from very, very confidential people.
SEN. FLAVIER. But what made you decide after 1992 to speak
out and make this very important revelation?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, because I felt that that it was my duty
to reveal that this money should go back to the Filipino people
especially now that our economic is very bad, and then...Not only
that but I talked to many bankers, Manhattan, to City Bank, all
these people who loaned money to the Philippines. And I told
them, supposing a group of Filipino businessmen paid the debt of
the Philippine government which was above 18 million then, 19
million, would you--how much would you give a discount? They
said, "Well, if you pay in dollars, we give you something like 50
percent discount." So, we could pay with the money that Marcos
would give, we could have paid the debt. By the way--and imagine
I even computed there, I have my notes that we could give
everybody in the Philippines, every Filipino citizen a bonus of
2,000 U.S. dollars. That was only the interest. But nobody--
no takers.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Were you ever approached by any government
body, panel including the PCGG to testify regarding your
knowledge of the Marcos wealth aside from that meeting which you
had with Mr. Gunigundo?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. In fact, the gentleman is here. He
called my house, he came and I said, I would only give my
testimony whatever I know to the bearer or to your boss. But I
was not interested to the person you brought along, who was ex-
employee of Campos. He was an employee of Campos. Before that,
he was an employee of Benedicto. I know him very well.
Now, if I needed the PCGG for my testimony, bring in
somebody that belongs to the opposite camp. Ano ang rason niya.
Why did you bring this gentleman who was involved with somebody
who took away assets from us.
THE CHAIRMAN. This is out of the ordinary, but do we
allow the Commissioner of PCGG, Mr. Rosales, to answer that
question.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. the commissioner came to my house.
MR. ROSALES. May I know who you are referring to?
MR. ZOBEL. Soler. I know Soler since we were kids.
Nothing wrong. But, to me, why PCGG brought somebody that you
took assets from to investigate me. Why?
MR. ROSALES. Mr. Soler was the--a director and still now
the director of the IRC Group of companies was surrendered by Mr.
Campos.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. But does he have to do of what I know
about Marcos? Why?
MR. ROSALES. Well, in the course of our relations, he
mentioned to me that you were a personal friend.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
MR. ROSALES. So, I asked him if you could bridge a meeting
between PCGG informally to start between me and the other
commissioner to have a talk with you and react to the newspaper
reports then being attributed to you about the Marcos gold.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I find it very highly irregular to bring
somebody you confiscated assets from. Even my son doesn't know
about this Marcos gold. Now, why should I tell the other side.
MR. ROSALES. Is this on record?
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. ROSALES. Mr. Chairman. Before I brought Mr. Soler to
your residence, I mentioned him to you in my two communications.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
MR. ROSALES. And you even asked me, now who is Mr. Soler?
So, I replied to you, give you a background your relationship to
him.
MR. ZOBEL. That's why I wanted it in writing. That's why
I asked you.
MR. ROSALES. Then when we got your confirmatory fax for us
to attend, then I brought him along. That's the whole story
behind that.
MR. ZOBEL. That's why I told you nothing.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, immediately prior to the holding of
this deposition, is it true that some people had come from the
Philippines to monitor this deposition-taking aside from the
official members of this panel?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Can you tell this Committee?
MR. ZOBEL. Two people came on Sunday. I think one
gentleman from the FBI is here. He arrives Sunday. A certain
Captain Luga. And another one, Bobby Dacer. Those came on
Sunday flight who called and the FBI were watching for them.
Now, record is Bobby Dacer, he is a paid emissary by the
administration for somebody to confuse this. He is known for
that. Parang papalitan ang sinasabi mong totoo. I mean, I
handled 34 corporations. My question was, why are they sending
army people? That's retired captain. Why? This retired
captain was in Honolulu during the Marcos time.
THE CHAIRMAN. Also.
MR. ZOBEL. Also. Now, why are they sending ex-army
people? Why? Are they afraid of the truth?
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, regarding the Marcos gold, can you tell
this Committee of your knowledge how the Marcos gold has been
explained to have come into the possession of Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, partly he told me he found the Yamashita
treasure.
THE CHAIRMAN. He found.
MR. ZOBEL. He found the Yamashita treasure.
THE CHAIRMAN. The Yamashita treasure.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, part. Part he said, he bought from
soldiers who had him the past, who were the past that he supposed
he got decorated sa...
THE CHAIRMAN. Bessang Pass.
MR. ZOBEL. Bessang Pass. He said, some soldiers then
sold him the gold for 20 U.S. dollars then because they couldn't
carry the gold out, as it could get confiscated...
THE CHAIRMAN. The gold bar?
MR. ZOBEL. The gold bars.
THE CHAIRMAN. Twenty U.S. dollars per bar?
MR. ZOBEL. Twenty U.S. dollars per bar. Now, remember
then, I told him, I kidded him and said, "why didn't say this
before?" Because you have to pay taxes on it. He said,
"Enrique, you have to remember, there was no government, no laws,
nobody." So, I didn't. So, what did you do? I sent them to
Hong Kong.
THE CHAIRMAN. Hong Kong.
MR. ZOBEL. That's what he told me during the
conversation..
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. Was he referring to the shipment of
this gold to Hong Kong when he was already the President?
MR. ZOBEL. No, no. This is during the war, because he
said, there was no government, no president. That must be during
the war, during the liberation..
THE CHAIRMAN. During liberation.
MR. ZOBEL. Liberation.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, because...
MR. ZOBEL. It must have been. My guess, I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. It wouldn't--it just wouldn't if he must be
talking about the shipment of gold from the Philippines to Hong
Kong during the war. I mean, that would have been hardly
possible.
MR. ZOBEL. No, after the war. Liberation. After the
war. In fact, we went further and he told me that the first
shipment was sent by U.S. Army, Air Force DC-3. He bribed the
pilots to fly to Hong Kong. And I would imagine the pilot of
the U.S. Air Force, but that's what he told me. Now, whether it
is true or not, I don't know. I'm just telling what he told me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did Mr. Marcos also mentioned to you that
during his presidency gold was taken from the Central Bank?
MR. ZOBEL. No.
THE CHAIRMAN. Or transferred it?
MR. ZOBEL. No. He never mentioned anything during his
presidency to me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Apparently the idea was to create a story
that the Marcos gold were accumulated from the time he was not
yet president of the country?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, during your conversation, several
conversations with President Marcos, was there anytime at all
that the Kloten Airport, warehouse Freilager Warehouse underneath
the Kloten Airport was that ever mentioned by Mr. Marcos in your
conversations?
MR. ZOBEL. No. I only knew about the Kloten upon
reading the papers, in the local dailies.
THE CHAIRMAN. But just to clarify, in one of your
conversations with President Marcos, he also mentioned that among
the countries were his gold has been deposited is Switzerland?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. His answer is "Yes."
SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. Don Enrique, it is my impression that the
bulk of the gold certificates and dollar deposits of Mr. Marcos
and the family were confiscated when he landed in Honolulu?
MR. ZOBEL. According to him. He mentioned that to me.
That was confiscated in Honolulu some certificates but most were
left in Manila, in Malacanang. But what was confiscated here
some certificate and several suit cases full of peso bills. But
the U.S. diverted the flight from--he told me that they took him
to Clark and told him that they would take to Vigan. After
about two hours of flight, he asked, "well, why? Then he said,
we're going to Honolulu because there is a revolution in Vigan.
That's what he told me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did you say, Enriquito?
MR. ZOBEL. What?
THE NURSE. Enriquito.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did you say revolution in Vigan?
MR. ZOBEL. That's what they told him. This general
accompanied him in the airplane and told him that we cannot take
you to Vigan because the government forces are infiltrating
Vigan. There is a fight there. For your safety, we'll take
you to Honolulu.
THE CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the name Roberto
Caoili?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I read some of his paper. He sent a
letter to President Ramos or Aquino. But I have a copy of his
letter.
THE CHAIRMAN. What was his letter about?
MR. ZOBEL. I forget right now. But it's about, I would
guess 15 pages. He said, I will tell you, his excellency where
the gold is whether, etcetera, etcetera.
THE CHAIRMAN. To your knowledge, is Mr. Caoili still in
the Philippines?
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know it, but he sent it by mail a copy
of his letter many years ago. I have a copy in my house.
THE CHAIRMAN. Letter mailed from the Philippines?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. And it has his address in that letter?
MR. ZOBEL. What?
THE CHAIRMAN. His address.
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know. But I have. I know because I
was amused of his letter that's why I read it and I kept a copy.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably we will have a copy of that
letter?
MR. ZOBEL. I will furnish you a copy. It's unbelievable,
but you read it.
THE CHAIRMAN. And the name of that editor from a local
paper that also spoke the Marcos wealth with you?
MR. ZOBEL. No. He showed but he didn't speak to me.
He showed me other pictures of the gold bars, some name Surinam,
some Hong Kong, different--some in Singapore, the gold bar.
Anong pangalan niya? Fernando. He went to my house.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. In any event, even what this
person showed to you, well, the pictures of gold bars with
various, the names of various....
MR. ZOBEL. Whether with....
THE CHAIRMAN. ...and the gold bars were supposed to have
been placed under the custody of Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. No, he just showed me pictures of the gold
bars. He didn't make any comment at all.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, there was no relationship by....
MR. ZOBEL. No, but....the only thing he told me, these are
the gold bars that were taken by the Presidential Command.
That's all he told me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Presidential Command of the administration
or during the presidency of Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, this person said that these were the
pictures of the gold bars that were taken by the members of the
Presidential Security Command at that time when Mr. Marcos was
President?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. The answer is yes.
MR. CHAVEZ. Your Honor, may I be allowed to make a
manifestation.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, please.
MR. CHAVEZ. The person named Roberto Caoili is the leader
of soldiers who were then in their teams who dugged up some bars
of gold in various places in Metro Manila--in Montalban, in
Laguna, the details of which are setforth in a joint affidavit
which he signed, co-signed with 95 others. That affidavit in the
case the address of Mr. Roberto Caoili and, therefore, I would
like to propose that the appropriate compulsory process be issued
to require Mr. Caoili to appear before the Committee to testify
on the affidavit that he executed.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. This Committee will hold that
advisement and act accordingly when we get back to Manila.
I think we should have a break. Five minutes.
BREAK : 4:25 P.M.
RESUME : 4:45
P.M.
THE CHAIRMAN. Let's resume.
Mr. Zobel, for the record, what is the quid pro quo here for
you? What is it to you? Why are you taking this trouble of, you
know, testifying regarding the Marcos wealth, after all
everybody knows that you have been a close confidant of Mr.
Marcos? And so, people are asking why is Mr. Zobel, you know,
testifying now? What is it in for him?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, it started for me personally but I feel
that I am 72 years old, so I would like very much love that at
least I can contribute something to the Philippines to the poor
people.
THE CHAIRMAN. And in your 62 years of existence, Mr.
Zobel, how long have you been...
MR. ZOBEL. Seventy-two.
THE CHAIRMAN. Seventy-two.
MR. ZOBEL. Seventy-two. I wish I were 62.
THE CHAIRMAN. How long have you been a paraplegie?
MR. ZOBEL. Now, nine and a half years.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, some people are disinclined to believe
the figures that are apparently mentioned as the amount of the
Marcos gold, what would be your impression regarding this?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, you have to analyze that, for example, now
the government, press and media say, Imee Marcos, Irene Marcos
has 13 billion. Now, I said 35 billion. General Almonte say
20 billion, Imelda Marcos said it takes about 70 billion. So,
their guess is good as mine. It came out in the Inquirer, I
think, she said, I have approximately 70 billion but I don't know
where. Now, that's her relevant statement. I read that on the
papers.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, are you telling the Committee, Mr.
Zobel, that there is basis for this figure of the amount of
Marcos wealth running to several billions of U.S. dollars?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. I would take gold, assets and dollars
over all comments even bank certificates, I would say 100
billion.
THE CHAIRMAN. One hundred million U.S. dollars?
MR. ZOBEL. Hundred billion U.S. dollars. Now, there are
many people who say the Philippines have that much gold. I have
mentioned to you before somebody told me that this include Nazi
gold because the Germans got all the--during the World War II,
they got all the gold of the different countries and when Germany
was going to be occupied and they were worried about the Allied,
they sent the money to Holland. And then when the allied were
going to Holland, they sent the money to Surinam. So, now the
Yamashita got all Surinam when they included SouthEast Asia.
So, that's why Yamashita treasure is not only what they dug in
the Philippines, but he brought back and that amounted to a lot
of gold.
THE CHAIRMAN. In one of your conversations with Mr.
Marcos here in Honolulu, from you own knowledge, was there any
foreign businessmen who wanted to transact with Mr. Marcos on his
so-called gold bar?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I am curious now how they got this
information but the day after Marcos talked to me about the gold,
the two Vice Presidents, I have the names in the house,
approached me from the National Bank of Saudi Arabia, but the
Chairman was Maphos who was a close friend of mine.
Now, how these two people found about the gold, I don't
know, but they said, we do relay to President Marcos that they
would buy all his gold at 40 percent discount.
THE CHAIRMAN. Forty percent discount?
MR. ZOBEL. Forty percent discount. 4 0. Cockwell was
the Vice President.
THE CHAIRMAN. Cockwell?
MR. ZOBEL. Cockrell. And another Pakistani. There were
two people. The other one is an Iranian working for the bank.
Now, they offered 40 percent. So, I relayed this to Mr. Marcos
and Marcos said, "No. Enrique, sabihin mo 30." So, sinabi ko
30, umalis na sila. But how the hell did the National Bank of
Saudi Arabia find out?. Now, I found out from the American
government that they were really mad of the situation because
they said, the Gulf War cost something like 100 million. Now,
they imagine what this amount of gold would do 35 billion where
you could finance wars worth five times like the Gulf War again.
THE CHAIRMAN. And they were talking about Marcos gold in
deposit with the United States?
MR. ZOBEL. But they said just tell Mr. Marcos that we
will buy all his gold.
THE CHAIRMAN. No, no. Regarding that last statement of
this American friend of yours, that....
MR. ZOBEL. They did not want Saudi Arabia government to
get back all the gold because that bold could finance more than
the Gulf War. Like I mentioned, the Gulf War was only 10
percent of that total amount.
THE CHAIRMAN. Just for purposes of clarity. So, the
Arabian business people...
MR. ZOBEL. No, the National Bank of Saudi Arabia.
THE CHAIRMAN. National Bank of Saudi Arabia.
MR. ZOBEL. National Bank of Saudi Arabia headed by Maphos,
chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. National Bank of Saudi Arabia headed by Mr.
Maphos wanted to buy all the gold of Marcos at--did you say 40
percent?
MR. ZOBEL. Forty percent discount.
THE CHAIRMAN. Discount. And Mr. Marcos....
MR. ZOBEL. They will pay in cash.
THE CHAIRMAN. Will be paid in cash. And Mr. Marcos told
you he wanted only at 30 percent.
MR. ZOBEL. He would only accept 30 percent discount for
all.
THE CHAIRMAN. For all.
MR. ZOBEL. And they said "No." The Saudi said, "No."
THE CHAIRMAN. They wanted 40?
MR. ZOBEL. They wanted 40.
THE CHAIRMAN. And...
MR. ZOBEL. They came to my house, unexpected to my house
here in Hawaii.
THE CHAIRMAN. Here in Hawaii.
MR. ZOBEL. My wife was present.
THE CHAIRMAN. And this was shortly before Mr. Marcos died?
MR. ZOBEL. This was the date after I talked to him in his
house here in Makiki Heights. The day after.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, when was the last time you saw Mr.
Marcos prior to his death in terms of may be weeks or months,
just to situate your conversation?
MR. ZOBEL. February 8, 1989.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Marcos died in 1989, September if I am
not mistaken.
MR. ZOBEL. That was in February.
THE CHAIRMAN. And so, the last time you saw him was in
February. And the last time you saw him he was already in the
intensive care?
MR. ZOBEL. Intensive care. When he opened his eyes, he
looked and smiled, that's all. He couldn't talk.
THE CHAIRMAN. He couldn't talk anymore. Was that one of
the reasons why some of the documents that you had prepared for
him, for example, the Trust Agreement...?
MR. ZOBEL. That was before, a week before approximately.
THE CHAIRMAN. Could not be signed by him. He was no
longer in possession of his normal faculties?
MR. ZOBEL. No. When I gave him the document, he could
have, it was my belief because he was talking to me. But the
doctors, they argued that they cannot certify because he cannot
concentrate or know what he is reading more than five seconds.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, he was capable of focusing
on any matter only for five seconds?
MR. ZOBEL. That was the doctor said. The doctors name--I
have the names. Filipino doctors by the way.
THE CHAIRMAN. To your knowledge, from the last time you
saw Mr. Marcos in February of 1989 until he died in September of
1989, was he able to get out of the intensive care at all?
MR. ZOBEL. I don't know if he was in the intensive. He
had a private room. So, I guess the doctor--I don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, you were not able to get back
to Hawaii anymore after you saw him in February 1989?
MR. ZOBEL. No.
THE CHAIRMAN. When he died--after he died, did you come
back here?
MR. ZOBEL. No. I came after he had died, I think six
months and later I saw--I saw the airconditioned coffin near the
other side of the island. I was impressed because he has a
generator there donated by the Filipinos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Let us clarify the point of the conditions
of the Trust Agreement that he wanted to be buried in the
Philippines.
MR. ZOBEL. In the Philippines. But especially he told
me, "Huwag kang papayag sa Philippine Consulate, ha. Lupa din
natin iyan. I want Philippine island."
THE CHAIRMAN. So, he did not want to be buried here?
MR. ZOBEL. No. He said, I'm afraid, they would do that,
and I guess he was afraid that they would do that.
THE CHAIRMAN. And the second condition was his family
should no longer be sued?
MR. ZOBEL. Be sued.
THE CHAIRMAN. Prosecuted....
MR. ZOBEL. Prosecuted, sued by the government.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, considering all these events, Mr.
Zobel, it would probably be relevant for you to place on record
how you feel regarding these incidents particularly on the length
of time it was taken for your testimony to be placed on record
before an authorized body of the Philippine government.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, first, I must say I'm extremely happy and
satisfied to the Blue Ribbon Committee headed by you had finally,
finally asked me the questions, because before they never wanted
to talk to me about it. That's why I would thought what are
they hiding. If I will not tell the truth, why don't they want
the people to know that Marcos had that gold. We all know he
had gold but the government wants to confuse the poor people of
the Philippines who don't know anything. This is a story why,
because they wanted to divide it among themselves.
Yes, I have a tape that I'd like to give you when I first
talked about it with Louie Beltran who passed away, Straight from
the Shoulder, and another one from Randy David.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, yes. You have a copy of a videotape.
MR. ZOBEL. VHS. I have it copied yesterday from betamax.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah. Which shall bear the caption
"Interview with two E.Z., that means Enrique Zobel, Louie
Beltran, Straight from the Shoulder, this is June 10, 1992, and
the Man and the Gold by Randy David." So, there are two video
interviews.
MR. ZOBEL. Because a lot were advertisement and they were
removed.
THE CHAIRMAN. And you are submitting this tape to the
Committee as part of your testimony.
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Because what is important there is the
actual present of General Almonte where he said will be
criticizing the government because they didn't want to find the
gold. He already add the fact--he could have done it within 24
hours but due to confusing opposite letters to deposit in one
bank, to deposit to the other banks . But the banks....
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Almonte was a very important figure
during the Ramos presidency. To your knowledge, did he pursue
the search for the gold, the Marcos gold, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, this was said by him before the
elections. But after the elections, silence of everybody. Too
much money.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, incidentally, you mentioned that four
people were given individually one million dollars worth of gold
bars, individually, one each to four people. Would you know why
they were given these gold bars?
MR. ZOBEL. Naku. I don't know. But talking about the
gold, he mentioned that I gave these following people one
million dollar because mga "bata ko iyan."
THE CHAIRMAN. So, he used the word "Mga bata ko iyan."
MR. ZOBEL. Mga loyal bata ko iyan.
THE CHAIRMAN. So,...
MR. ZOBEL. He said, "Loyal bata" but one of them made him
leave the Philippines, the other one took his place as president.
That's what I call "really loyal bata." (Laughter).
THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably unless there are any other
suggestions or questions, we can wind up this portion of Mr.
Zobel's testimony and tomorrow, hopefully tonight our
stenographer can transcribe the testimonies, so that tomorrow
we'll give a copy of the transcript to Mr. Zobel and to Consul
General. Mr. Zobel to do corrections or any statements that
might have been made or, you know, corrections in the transcript
of what he really said.
And then we can have the signing tomorrow of this deposition
here again in the Consulate. So, hopefully by tomorrow
afternoon, the stenographer will be able to finish everything.
MR. CHAVEZ. Would it mean just the same, we will schedule
to appear here tomorrow?
THE CHAIRMAN. Tomorrow afternoon at 2:00 o'clock.
MR. ZOBEL. What time.
THE CHAIRMAN. The same time, if that is all right.
All right. So, the session of the Blue Ribbon Committee is
hereby...
Probably, Mr. Zobel, would you want to say anything more.
MR. ZOBEL. No. Except like I repeat it, I'm very happy
that we have some people in the government that are super honest
and interested for the poor people. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. And thank you for that. And I would like
to assure you that the Committee will resume--not only tomorrow
but also in the Philippines its investigation into this search
for the Marcos wealth. And probably we'll need to call on you
again especially in Manila where probably most of your papers are
located in Manila to aid you in your recollection of the things,
considering that many of the things that you testified to took
place many years ago.
And knowing also that some people are making your testimony-
-their testimony before this Committee contingent upon your
giving your testimony before us, it would be very helpful to this
Committee if we can have some reservations for you to appear at a
more opportune time in the Philippines in the near future.
So, in behalf of the Committee, in behalf of Senator
Flavier, Consul General Falcon, Mr. Galvez, Mr. Rosales, Mr.
Frank Chavez, we would like to thank you Mr. Zobel.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, thank you very much and I hope I have
opened Pandoras box, they say.
THE CHAIRMAN. We have some....
MR. ZOBEL. At least I can start it.
THE CHAIRMAN. Which you can pursue. Thank you very much.
(Applause).
THE SESSION WAS SUSPENDED AT 5:30 P.M.
RESUMPTION: October 28, 1999 2:00 P.M.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right, session resumed. We would
like to begin by asking Mr. Zobel if there are additional
materials that he might wish to present to the Blue Ribbon
Committee regarding the topic that we have been discussing since
yesterday.
MR. ZOBEL. I have several exhibits. Exhibit "l". Ilabas
mo. (Referring to his nurse).
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Zobel said, he had several exhibits to
present. We will kindly have those exhibits and we identify
them--the last exhibit was number...
MR. TAMONDONG. Exhibit "D".
THE CHAIRMAN. D. So, this will now be Exhibit "E"-Zobel.
MR. ZOBEL. Exhibit l, Gunigundo, when he came to my house,
he gave me this that Imelda had offered me five percent.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. Zobel, please identify a so-
called "A Memorandum of Understanding" consisting of two pages
plus some entries...
MR. ZOBEL. In my diary.
THE CHAIRMAN. This is your diary.
MR. ZOBEL. You will notice that Mr. Gunigundo put the
paper at the end of the table and when he left he didn't sign it,
but--I would say that I have witnesses who saw that he do that.
So, they informed me.
THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, just for record purposes, we
have marked this Memorandum of Understanding consisting of two
pages as Exhibits "E"-Zobel and "E-l".
For the second page, and this purportedly is a Memorandum
of Understanding executed by and between Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos
and children, Imee Marcos Manotoc, Ferdinand R. Marcos, Jr. and
Irene Marcos Araneta, represented by Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos,
referred to as the first party, and the Presidential Commission
on Good Government represented by his Chair, Magtanggol
Gunigundo, referred to as the second party, and Enrique Zobel,
referred to as the third party.
Now, Mr. Zobel, just for the record, will you kindly inform
this Committee who this Enrique Zobel is referred to here as the
third party. Are you the same Enrique Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, I'm the same Enrique Zobel.
THE CHAIRMAN. And this document states that the third
party, meaning, Mr. Zobel would be entitled to a maximum of five
percent taken from the gross recovery before the application of
any sharing that may result from a compromise agreement by the
second party which is the PCGG represented by Mr. Gunigundo and
the first party which are actually the Marcoses.
All right. And I would suppose that this Memorandum of
Understanding is intended to rebut the statement of Mr. Gunigundo
that he never offered any amount as--any amount up to a maximum
of five percent to be taken from any gross recovery of the so-
called "Marcos Wealth."
And for purposes of record, we wish to put into the
stenographic notes that this document was signed only by Mrs.
Imelda R. Marcos for herself and on behalf of the children,
Now, kindly tell us Mr. Zobel, whose signature is that
appearing over the typewritten name, Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I was told by him that this is Mrs.
Imelda Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Told by whom?
MR. ZOBEL. By Gunigundo.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, you were told by Mr. Gunigundo that
this was the signature of Mrs. Imelda R. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. Also Mrs. Imelda's representative was present,
Cherrie Cobarrubias. Cherrie Cobarrubias was present in the
meeting. Also present was my assistant Baylon who was sitting
here.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, aside from Mr. Gunigundo
telling you that this is the signature of Mrs. Imelda Romualdez
Marcos, her representative by the name of Cherrie Cobarrubias?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. She was representing Mrs. Imelda
Marcos.
THE CHAIRMAN. Also told you that this came from Mrs.
Marcos.
MR. ZOBEL. Correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. And your assistant Atty. Baylon was also
present?
MR. ZOBEL. Correct. He is here now.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. Now, can you tell us why is it that
Mr. Gunigundo, you said told you that he was going to sign this
document. But this document that you presented does not appear
to have the signature of Mr. Gunigundo.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he gave it to me and he put it at the
end of the table. You realized that I can't move, I can't read
that thing, so I assume--I took his word for it. But the
witnesses are all there and saw it.
THE CHAIRMAN. And he left after that conference without
signing this document, is that what you are saying?
MR. ZOBEL. That's correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, the second page of Exhibit "E"-Zobel
which is marked as Exhibit "E-l"Zobel, has your printed or
typewritten name Enrique Zobel, third party, but it does not bear
your signature. Can you tell the Committee why is it that you
did not sign in this document?
MR. ZOBEL. No, because when I noted that he didn't sign, I
didn't sign neither. I noticed he didn't sign it the next
morning when it was shown to me.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, Mr. Gunigundo appearing
before the Blue Ribbon Committee hearing in Manila denied that he
offered anything to you. Can you tell us if prior to this--to
the delivery of the Memorandum of Understanding to you, Mr.
Gunigundo had talked with you?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. No, he did not. He brought this paper
over to me because in the telephone call, he called me before and
he said, he asked me that question by the telephone. I said,
send it to me in writing and he came over.
THE CHAIRMAN. And so in that telephone conversation he
was mentioning to you the terms--an agreement that would be...
MR. ZOBEL. No, no. All he said, Mr. Senator, was I will
offer and Mrs. Marcos five percent for him for the information of
the gold.
THE CHAIRMAN. This was verbally done?
MR. ZOBEL. Verbally done.
THE CHAIRMAN. And then you asked him to put it in writing.
MR. ZOBEL. I said, please put it in writing and send it
to me, and then he brought it over.
THE CHAIRMAN. And this was the result of that suggestion
of yours that he puts his offer in writing to give you five
percent of the recovery of any Marcos wealth?
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. I also did not sign it. I
know because I was not interested in the five percent.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Now, I have here with me now--it
looks like a photocopy of a diary dated June 1, can you kindly
explain what relation has this document with the Gunigundo visit
to you?
MR. ZOBEL. No. Everytime my nurses put all my
appointment everyday in my appointment book, and this is on that
day, June 1, the people came to see me. They had an appointment
with me.
THE CHAIRMAN. And among the people noted here under the
caption, "Marcos Gold People"--I cannot read the rest of the
annotation but the names are clear, Imelda Marcos and General
Kintanar, Secretary Gunigundo and Doy Laurel.
MR. ZOBEL. Imelda did not come but Mrs. Cobarrubias came
instead.
THE CHAIRMAN. And what about General Kintanar.
MR. ZOBEL. He was present.
THE CHAIRMAN. As well as Doy Laurel.
MR. ZOBEL. They were present.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, aside from these documents that you have
just presented, are there any other evidence which you wish to
submit to the Committee?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes. Yesterday, I gave two tapes. I found
in my house here that I have four tapes. First, I gave
yesterday, the one of Louie Beltran and Randy David. I also
found two more which are more interesting to the Committee which
is one by Loren Legarda and the other one by Tina Monzon Palma.
Now, the one by Tina Monzon Palma has pictures of Marcos in
the hospital here and many more, and I am corroborating what I've
said yesterday.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, very good. All right. I think
Senator Flavier has some questions to ask.
SEN. FLAVIER. Just a few, Mr. Chairman.
I glanced over the news items that appeared in Manila
relevant to our hearing yesterday, and I thought I would ask
these two questions in the interest of clarity and to avoid any
misunderstanding of any sort.
The first one, Don Enrique refers to the four people that
you mentioned--a Crisologo, a Ramos, an Enrile and a Ver. Did
you like to repeat, for the record, the incidents because the way
it's being treated it is as though you are claiming it as a fact
rather than for them to understand that you are only reporting
something that Mr. Marcos told you. Would you please repeat
that, and for the record, so that our people will understand
exactly the circumstance, Don Enrique?
MR. ZOBEL. Thank you, Mr. Senator. Now, first for
clarity sake, Mr. Marcos told me this in his house or in the
hospital during my visit within Honolulu that during the war in
Bessang Pass, he got the gold from people. So, that is during
the war. That's what he told me. Whether that is true or not,
I don't know. I complied with my commitment after all that I
would tell what Marcos told me. That is what Mr. Marcos told
me.
Now, I have no proof of whether he has done it or not, I
don't know.
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. Don Enrique, I think that is very
important, because the way it is being pictured it is as though
it was something that happened after the war, long after the war,
and by implication, is of recent vintage. But the way I
understood you yesterday was the way you are mentioning and I
thought that it is a repetition. It is important that this is--
during the war that the incident transpired.
MR. ZOBEL. In fact, he further mentioned that if you
noticed my statement yesterday, I said that during the war he
mentioned there was no government.
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. I recall you mentioning that. So,
the matter of tax and reporting became academic. So, that I
think is a very important clarification that you have made.
The second...
THE CHAIRMAN. Before you go to the second point.
Perhaps it would also be good in the interest of truth, Mr.
Zobel, if we can clarify that the dates on which these gold bars
were supposedly given to the persons that were named by you
yesterday had not been mentioned by Mr. Marcos to you? Did he
tell you that he gave these gold bars during the war, after the
war or before the war?
MR. ZOBEL. No, he just told me during our conversation
that during the war there was no government, he had this given
equivalent in dollars of gold, I don't know, but this was given
to these four people during--I assume during the war. That is my
assumption.
THE CHAIRMAN. You assume that it was during the war.
MR. ZOBEL. Because he told me there was no government.
It has to be during the war, during liberation.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.
SEN. FLAVIER. My second question, Don Enrique, is again
the matter of clarification of the way they refer to the
Yamashita treasure, because I think a clarification is in order
because when it is lumped up generically plus a big Yamashita
treasure, they are lumping together even monies that were from
Surinam and the others. You may want to annotate this for the
sake of clarity and for the record, Don Enrique.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he was talking about the Yamashita
treasure regarding what he showed me. Now, that specifically I
mentioned yesterday I estimate by counting the ounces and
computing that 400 was equivalent to 35 billion. The other part
where I said, the 100 billion is by information that I received
from witnesses that present themselves in Manila, I mentioned.
That they said this money came from Germany, Holland, Surinam,
and that Yamashita got them and brought them to Manila. That's
why I assume 100 billion.
SEN FLAVIER. Yes. So, you were really referring two
tranches.
MR. ZOBEL. Two tranches. One of 35 and second, the
balance of 100.
SEN. FLAVIER. Which were accumulated from gold bars...
MR. ZOBEL. Mostly from Germany.
SEN. FLAVIER. ...from Germany, Surinam and the others.
So, I think that clarification is important because it delineate
sourcing and some people were saying the figures don't tally.
But yesterday it was clear in my mind that the 35 was a
calculation you made based on the stock of gold certificates that
was shown to you as a proof of capability of repayment of the
loan that he was asking you which you estimated at 35 billion.
And in addition, there was a second tranch that came from
these various sources including Surinam because one of the gold
bars, I understand, had an itching of Surinam and, therefore,
those two tranches together you estimate including your other
information to be in the order of 100 billion U.S. dollars.
Would that be a fair summation, Don Enrique?
MR. ZOBEL. That is very clear. Now, one thing more is
that I based the 35 billion
on the certificates he showed to me. I also mentioned that
this certificate looked real but I don't know if they were false
or not. I do not know.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Don Enrique.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, again, Mr. Zobel, in the interest of
two, we have to repeat this question because assuming that the
gold bars were given to the persons you named like Mr. Enrile.
During the war he was still probably a student. He was not even
a graduate of the College of Law of the University of the
Philippines, so the likelihood is Mr. Marcos would have not met
Mr. Enrile at that time and, therefore, probably we have to
situate what you are saying so that we can understand just where
Marcos was coming from when he mentioned these things to you.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he mentioned to me while in Hawaii.
Now, I don't know whether he gave to Enrile or not. That's what
he told me. So, you asked me what the President told me, that's
what he told me.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah yes, but now today, just a few minutes
ago, you seem to qualify your statement yesterday that the gold
bars were given during the war which at that time Mr. Enrile was
probably still a teenager at most, and he would not have gone to
the College of Law of the University of the Philippines during
the war because everybody knows that Mr. Enrile went to the
University of the Philippines after the war.
And so I'm just trying to situate your remarks so that we
can at least try to determine just what would be perhaps the
basis of Mr. Marcos statement to you. We are not questioning,
Mr. Zobel, your statement that Mr. Marcos mentioned these people
and that he gave one gold bar each worth at least one million
dollars to the four of them. That, we are not questioning.
But we would like to put on record the circumstances as best as
we can recall which will show that this is not just a wild claim.
Because otherwise if the circumstances are such that Mr. Marcos
categorically said, I gave these gold bars to these people during
the war or immediately after the war, this could possibly lead to
some misunderstanding about the whole thing.
MR. ZOBEL. The only thing, Mr. Senator, I'd like to
correct when you said Mr. Enrile was a teenager. That's
impossible, because he is much older than I am. And during
that time I was 17 already, so he could not be a teenager.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. You would still be a teenager if
that's the case at 17 or 18 or even 19 before he turns 20.
MR. ZOBEL. But I think he is ten years older than I am.
I'm 72.
THE CHAIRMAN. He is 72, yeah, but Enrile is only 75.
MR. ZOBEL. I was 18.
MR. CHAVEZ. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
MR. CHAVEZ. As a matter of record, I think Senator Enrile
graduated from U.P. in 1954.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yeah, exactly.
MR. CHAVEZ. So, he started law proper in 1950.
THE CHAIRMAN. Which was long after the war, I mean, four
years after the war was over.
All right. Again, we were only just trying to situate the
personalities of the persons you have mentioned to place them
under a certain period, so that we can more or less determine the
veracity of Mr. Marcos's assertion. There is no question about
your statement. We believe what you said that Mr. Marcos
mentioned this to you, but nonetheless, we owe it to the people
to make sure that the statement would come out under the
circumstances which would give the statements some validity.
In other words, they would not look as if they were just
leaked out of the air by Mr. Marcos and passed unto you and you
said this before the Committee and the Committee sort of blows it
up before the mass media. We do not wish to be projected in
that light, Mr. Zobel. That's the reason why we are trying to
be a little more discerning on this issue.
MR. ZOBEL. I think you are very correct, Mr. Senator.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, also for the record,
during the war, was Mr. Ramos already elected? Hindi pa siguro.
He is still a cadet.
All right. In any event, these are circumstances that Mr.
Zobel would not really be concerned about it. It's only that as
Chair of the Committee, I believe that the Committee should be
cleared about its conclusions which we will draw from the
testimony of witnesses coming before us.
Senator Flavier, is there...
SEN. FLAVIER. No.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, just for the record again, Mr. Zobel,
when did Mr. Marcos mention to you that the gold bars, four gold
bars were given to Mr. Ramos, Mr. Enrile, Mr. Crisologo and Mr.
Ver? Was it in one of your visits to him in Honolulu?
MR. ZOBEL. It was specifically the night I went to visit-
-I had dinner with him at his house here, Makiki Heights.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, it was already after the EDSA
Revolution?
MR. ZOBEL. O, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, thank you very much. Do you
have anything to suggest?
All right. There is a suggestion that this question be raised
to you, Mr. Zobel. When Marcos was telling you about the
sources of his gold assets, the impression the Committee is
getting is that, he told you that these were collected even
before he became president. That's the impression that we get.
Is that a correct impression?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he said, he always loved gold and he had
the collection of some gold, but some gold bar. But I don't
know. He only mentioned the word "some." But the majority of
it was the Yamashita treasure.
THE CHAIRMAN. And which were recovered--the bulk of which
were recovered when he was already the president, is that
correct?
MR. ZOBEL. Recovered part when he was president and part
before the liberation from the Sierra Madre mountains.
THE CHAIRMAN. Did you get the impression, Mr. Zobel, that
the four gold bars that were supposedly given by Mr. Marcos to
Mr. Ramos, Mr. Enrile, Mr. Crisologo, Mr. Ver, came from the
Yamashita treasure?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, he mentioned to me just before he made
the statement that he bought bars from the soldiers, 20 dollars
per bar.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Implying that these were part
of the Yamashita treasure?
MR. ZOBEL. Implying, yes, correct. That's an
assumption.
THE CHAIRMAN. Would it be correct to assume that Mr.
Marcos made the impression that he gave the gold bars to Mr.
Enrile, Mr. Ramos, Mr. Crisologo and Mr. Ver when he was already
president? Can we draw that conclusion?
MR. ZOBEL. I honestly don't know.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. So, the answer is he doesn't
know for sure
SEN. FLAVIER. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
SEN. FLAVIER. Yesterday, you also mentioned, Don Enrique,
a phrase that I can no longer recall but it was something like
you explained that Marcos justified his giving the one bar each
to those four people because they were loyal, "Mga bata kong
loyal."
MR. ZOBEL. "Mga bata na loyal to me."
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. And the question is, how this
loyalty angle came to pass when the loyalty factor was something
that occurred during his presidency. It seems not to tally.
MR. ZOBEL. I really don't know, but I am only telling what
he told me. So, I don't know the rest.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Again, just to situate the
testimony a little more, in a more focused manner. Mr. Enrile
served in various capacities in the cabinet. I think that you
know, Mr. Zobel, is that correct?
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. And Mr. Ramos also was in many posts or
holding many positions under the Marcos government. That's also
correct, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct. They're both friend of mine.
I have known them for years.
THE CHAIRMAN. And so was Mr. Ver who was even, I think,
Chief of Staff of Mr. Marcos, is that correct?
MR. ZOBEL. That is correct.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Crisologo, if he is the Crisologo who
we have in mind, Congressman Floro Crisologo, for instance, was a
political henchman of Mr. Marcos when he was still in Congress as
well as when he became the President. Is that not correct, Mr.
Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. I'm sorry, but I don't know Mr. Crisologo.
I've never met him.
THE CHAIRMAN. In any event, that I think that can be
proven as a historical truth that Mr. Crisologo was a long time
congressman of Ilocos Sur and a close henchman of the president
politically.
So, I think we're done, Mr. Zobel. All right. So, again,
we'd like to express our thanks to Mr. Zobel for his willingness
to testify before this Committee. And Mr. Chavez...
So, what we are going to do now is to allow our stenographer
to finish the transcription of her notes and after that Mr. Zobel
will be given time to review the notes as transcribed before he
will be asked to thumbprint again all the pages before our Consul
General. Did I see any....Pardon.
All right. Yes. Earlier, we also heard that you had
communicated to Mr. Bongbong Marcos. In fact, this is part of
your testimony where I will quote you: "I wrote a letter to
Bongbong today, I have not typed it yet. I'll give you a copy."
Would you have a copy now, Mr. Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. I am being handed a one-page--
two-page document with the caption, "Enrique Zobel, 1475 Ihilao
Loop, Honolulu, dated October 28, 1999." The addressee Governor
Ferdinand Bongbong Marcos, Office of the Governor, Province of
Ilocos Norte, Laoag City 2900. That's the zip code, I think.
And it says, "Dear Bongbong." But before I go to the
contents, I'd like to find out if the thumbprint over the
typewritten name E. Zobel is yours?
MR. ZOBEL. That's mine.
THE CHAIRMAN. That is the thumb print of Mr. Zobel. And
the letter says and I will read because it's a brief letter. It
says:
"Last October 26, Monday, my employee here in Honolulu,
Chuck Barreiro received a phone call from a certain Noel C.
Calixto
who claims to be representing you (attached is a copy of his
business
card). Chuck reported to me the following:
l. Mr. Calixto told him, "Yung anak ng matanda ko at
yung
anak ng matanda mo ay nag-usap na.
2. He also told Chuck, "Nag-usap na rin kami nung "Big
Hawaiian", OK na planchado na!
3. He asked Chuck who are the people from media
coming to Honolulu
Coincidentally, Inigo called me about something that night
and I took the opportunity to ask him if he talked to you and he
said no. I believe that this person could harm you indirectly.
Why does he have to lie? What is this all about?
Regards.
E. Zobel.
Witness to the thumbprint, Evelyn Chotangco.
P.S. During my deposition last Wednesday, I saw him at the
Philippine Consulate.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, let me ask you these questions. What
is your understanding about this phrase? Mr. Calixto--this is a
certain person who came over to your employee, Mr. Chuck
Barreiro. Mr. Calixto told him, referring to Chuck Barreiro,
"Yung anak ng matanda ko at yung anak ng matanda mo ay nag-usap
na." What is the understanding of that?
MR. ZOBEL. That means Bongbong and my son Inigo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Have talked.
MR. ZOBEL. Have talked. That's what he says.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. And then No. 2, and then he
also told Chuck, "Nag-usap na rin kami nung Big Hawaiian, OK na
planchado na."
MR. ZOBEL. Now, the Big Hawaiian was here a while ago, his
name is Larry Mehau.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, so Larry. So, you are referring to
Larry Mehau?
MR. ZOBEL. Larry is here now. You could ask him
directly, if Bongbong talked to him.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will come to that.
Now, the Inigo name which is mentioned here is your son, Mr.
Zobel?
MR. ZOBEL. Yes, my son.
THE CHAIRMAN. And according to this letter of yours, you
talked to Inigo and you asked him if he indeed talked with
Bongbong?
MR. ZOBEL. No. We called him by telephone to tell me he
was going to Australia to visit his sister this weekend and I
took the opportunity and said, by the way, did Bongbong call you?
He said, "No."
THE CHAIRMAN. So the Big Hawaiian refers to Mr. Mehau?
MR. ZOBEL. Mehau. He is here.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, probably we will ask...We will take a
break from the testimony of Mr. Zobel to ask Mr. Mehau if he is
willing to answer a few questions regarding this point?
Mr. Mehau, will you please come over, Mr. Mehau? Consul
General, will you place Mr. Mehau under oath?
MS. FALCON. Will you please raise your right hand. Do
you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth? Please state your name?
THE CHAIRMAN. You may sit down. Excuse me. Kindly put
the microphone so...
Kindly state for the record your name, Mr. Mehau, your full name.
MR. MEHAU. Larry Mehau.
THE CHAIRMAN. And how it's spelled? M e h a u?
MR. MEHAU. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Where do you live, Mr. Mehau?
MR. MEHAU. In the big island. In Hawaii.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Probably you can give us a
forwarding address?
MR. MEHAU. P.O. Box 666, Camuela, Hawaii.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Do you know a person by the
name Noel C. Calixto, Mr. Mehau?
MR. MEHAU. I know of him, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Have you had any occasion to talk with him
in the last few days?
MR. MEHAU. Yes, we had breakfast together.
THE CHAIRMAN. And what did you talk about if you can share
that with us?
MR. MEHAU. Nothing as important as it was discussed here.
I informed him that I was taking care of Mr. Zobel's security.
THE CHAIRMAN. But there was no...anything that could be
interpreted to mean that you were talking with Mr. Calixto
regarding the Marcos wealth?
MR. MEHAU. Not about the Marcos wealth, but about his
testimony.
THE CHAIRMAN. His testimony?
MR. MEHAU. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Unless Senator Flavier wants to ask further
questions.
SEN. FLAVIER. I have a follow up question for Mr. Zobel.
THE CHAIRMAN. From Mr. Zobel. All right. Thank you,
Mr. Mehau. Thanks a lot.
SEN. FLAVIER. Can I ask him now just a short question?
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Don Enrique,
yesterday you alluded to an incident purporting to show that
there was threat to life referring, I think, to your children?
There was...Could you just corroborate because I have a follow up
question.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I have had calls from my very close
friends of mine to tell me that they overheard that they wanted
to harm me or my children or my grandchildren. And please,
necessary precaution in Hawaii before the deposition.
SEN. FLAVIER. Who was your informant, Don Enrique, who
told you? You are at liberty to do so.
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I'm sorry, but he asked me please not to
mention his name which I promised.
SEN. FLAVIER. That would be fine. Since then, Don
Enrique, were there any other threats nor incidents that make you
believe there was substance to that information?
MR. ZOBEL. Not this information but many years ago when
I--after Louie Beltran, I got several telephone calls in my
house. I just asked the phone number.
SEN. FLAVIER. So not the recent one?
MR. ZOBEL. Not the recent one.
SEN. FLAVIER. The one of Louie Beltran is dated `92, so
that was long time ago. But related to this information of
threat to you, your children or your grandchildren, there has
been no subsequent information or incidents that validate them?
MR. ZOBEL. No.
SEN. FLAVIER. Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Just for the record, we are
marking the letter of Mr. Zobel to Bongbong Marcos dated October
28, 1999, as Exhibit "G"-Zobel and photocopy of the calling card
of Noel C. Calixto as Exhibit "G-l"-Zobel.
MR. ZOBEL. By the way, the letter I'm sending it through
somebody leaving tomorrow for Manila.
THE CHAIRMAN. You are sending it to Manila.
MR. ZOBEL. Through somebody that is going to Manila
tomorrow. To be mailed from Manila to Laoag.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. To Mr. Bongbong Marcos.
Yes, Senator Flavier.
SEN. FLAVIER. Again, just for clarity, Don Enrique.
Yesterday, you mentioned about the Saudi businessmen who wanted
to buy all the gold of Mr. Marcos at a 40 percent discount, but
Mr. Marcos wanted 30, and therefore, the negotiation fail
through. Would you be aware of what happened to the gold
certificates after that?
MR. ZOBEL. All I know is I saw them and that night before
dinner and he had a heart attack and he was taken to the hospital
at 2:00 a.m. So, I saw the certificate when he was in his
library. The only two people in the library were Teresita and
his old valet.
SEN. FLAVIER. So, that was the last you know....
MR. ZOBEL. That's the last I know.
SEN. FLAVIER. But the certificates were there with
Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. No, no. The people in the house was his
family were only Bongbong and Mrs. Marcos. Now, this was in his
private library.
SEN. FLAVIER. I see. But when you saw--when the
certificate was shown to you, there was just the two of you and
Mr. Marcos?
MR. ZOBEL. The two of us and the nurse who showed to me
and the houseboy that was serving dinner for us.
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes. Thank you for that reply, Don
Enrique.
On an earlier point, there was this referral to the
conversation and the words "planchado na" was used. Can you
elaborate for us what that means or what is your understanding of
that phrase?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, that is the reason why I wrote the letter
because I don't understand them. What is planchado na? That
they expect me to lie or what? I don't know. That's my first
impression. Planchado na ang sasagutin ko. You got what I
mean?
SEN. FLAVIER. Yes.
MR. ZOBEL. That's obvious, you know. That's why I wrote
the letter because I don't know myself.
SEN. FLAVIER. I see. Thank you, Don Enrique.
THE CHAIRMAN. Now, yesterday, Mr. Zobel, you mentioned
about certain activities involving the Philippine banking
community and you raised some questions regarding the possible
meaning of all these movements. Perhaps we'll ask you to
venture an opinion as to the reason for this so-called "merging
of banks in relation to the sole issue of the recovery of Marcos
wealth?"
MR. ZOBEL. Okay Now, I'm talking as business on bank all
over the world. Nowadays, government are trying to get more
bank for more competition. Better rate, better etcetera. Now,
in the Philippines, we go exactly the reverse.
Now, I was thinking to myself. Why are we doing this?
Because this is silly to do this. It's very bad for the
country. So, because of my information from close friends that
I cannot mention, bankers, they were saying that they want to
merge because they want to launder the money that the Central
Bank had, that the other bank had--they want to launder it to a
few bank and they can only do it by merging honest bank with
government banks so that the government will get the information
of the honest bank. They become like an example, I don't say
this up to the--BPI is merging to Far East Bank. We do know
that Far East Bank is owned by many stockholders including the
government as they say. So, therefore, they will have access to
BPI. Now, being so big, they can assume a big loan.
THE CHAIRMAN. When you speak of money laundering, that can
cover a lot of things like drugs money, you know, extorted money,
or even--probably the return of the Marcos wealth through these
merged banks, Mr. Zobel? Would you think as a businessman, in
your opinion, that this would be possible?
MR. ZOBEL. Well, I will not ignore it. I believe there
is no law...
THE CHAIRMAN. Could you repeat your answer for the record?
MR. ZOBEL. I think there is no law. I think laundering
money to the Philippines. So, that's why--this is my personal
assumption. This is an ideal situation where very few big
bank, no laundering, so it's ideal for laundering.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Now, I guess we have exhausted
our questions for Mr. Zobel. So, we can call it a day and thank
again, Mr. Zobel, for his kindness in favoring us with his
presence.
And hopefully, because of your testimony here Mr. Zobel,
some other citizens could be induced to appear before this
Committee, maybe in Manila to amplify on certain points and
perhaps share with us their own personal knowledge of the things
that you have spoken about this afternoon.
So, in behalf of Senator Flavier and the members of our
Committee, may we thank Mr. Zobel again. After this deposition
taking, we will have our stenographer to transcribe the notes of
the proceedings for the review of Mr. Zobel for his thumb
printing and affirmation under oath of the contents of the notes
before our Consul General.
So, very likely, we will be able to do all of that by
tomorrow, Mr. Zobel. I hope that is all right with you.
MR. ZOBEL. I will be available tomorrow if God willing.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, maybe shall we set it for tomorrow
afternoon again at 2:00 o'clock.
Thank you, Mr. Zobel.
MR. ZOBEL. Thank you.
THE SESSION WAS ADJOURNED AT 4:30 P.M.
CERTIFIED CORRECT BY:
PERLA MAYOR
Stenographer
Last Modified: 11/10/99 02:01 GMT
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